Yellowstone is Dead

[Hornseeker]

jon... just read and re-read and then do it a few more time... WACenturions post... okay...

If you stay active in the field and have an open mind... maybe in about 20 years you will have a slight understanding of the complexity of this issue.

Thanks for the Great post Centurion.

[Elkaholic daWg]

 

"And here's a graph of wildlife populations in YNP.
  :twocents:How's that Baloney ? I am a hunter I Think theres nothing more awesome than a giant bull Elk my personal favorite .One of the reasons I went and helped restored winter grounds around YNP for elk .  What the hell have you done to help with the problem? I may be real green but at least I'm trying to make a difference and solve the situation to help stabilize predators through out the north west.Figure its better me than some wolf loving tree licking dirt humping psycho from California"



On the wolf issue...nothing except expressing an opinion.  One I might add I feel qualified to give.  I too went the the University of Idaho, graduating in 1973 with a degree in Wildlife Management as well as a second one in Fish Management.   I have never put this out there since joining this forum, but I then spent 30+ years working for WDFW as a field biologist as well as a Regional staff member finishing up an administrator for statewide programs in the Olympia headquarters office.

You have to realize one important thing, and I do not mean this to be degrading.  College professors who spend their lives in academia and doing research on the side, certainly do not have the same perspective as a wildlife professional who works with the public actually managing the resource in the field.  Studies come up with all kinds of recommendations, but seldom are they implemented.  What's the point of a study that funded, but the implementation is not?  The only thing it actually does is pad some reseach biologist's resume.

Another tidbit for you.  Reseach is only as good as the researcher himself.  To be credible, reseach has to be done in an unbiased way.  Unfortunately that is pretty damn difficult to achieve.  Everyone has their own views and they can easily bend the results.  You like wolves, your reseach will, whether you want it to or not, error on the wolf's side.  You don't like wolves you find ways to slant it the other way.  Just human nature.  Seen it happen many times.  With that said, it's still worthless without implementation to address what the research was actually for.   

Planning is another smoke and mirror game.  Just go check different states and their 5 year plans and see just how much actually was accomplished.  Very little.  The reason being they are filled with a bunch of minutia and worthless unobtainable nonsense.  But it sure looks professional.  I have always called it "safe ground" at high tide.  Never actually have to get you feet wet and implement anything.  Just spend your career going to meetings with like minded people, planning and then tell the public there is no money to do anything.  Cycle repeats and they start a new planning effort because now we are talking Ecosystem Management rather than an outdated terminology used for the previous five years.  Nothing but new buzz words every few years to deflect why nothing gets done.  I could go on forever, but I'm assuming you're getting my drift.

In closing my little rant, I can proudly say that I never forgot who I worked for.  That was the public of Washington State, and more importantly the ones we refer to as hunters and fishermen.  I owe each and every one of them my gratitude for a job I thoroughly enjoyed.  It was a career that just went to fast.  In the end I got fed up with the politics.  Wildlife management had not only become disfunctional in my mind, but was abandoning the people that had actually funded it's existence for years and years.   I fought battles all through my career with those who considered those folks..."Joe Sixpack".  They found more ways to do nothing for wildlife than one can imagine, but they sure as hell had the planning process mastered.

As I said previously, the wolf success story was one we didn't need.  How do you justify selling reintroduction of a native species with a larger nonnative Canadian wolf?  That should have been a giant red flag to begin with.  I wouldn't be to naive about what the real intent actually was.

Good luck in your career. 

One of the best posts I've ever read on this forum. Thanks for your incredible service to this state, wished you were still working for us. 

We need more  wildlife officers like You (WaCenturion) and UC Warden!

[wolfbait]

Idaho Outfitter
I am a outfitter in Salmon for over 30 years and have seen the change! In 1996 our Unit 28 opening week saw 10 hunters harvest 9 bull elk. 1-7×7, 6-6×6’s and 2- 5×5’s. All Mature bulls,all happy hunters! 11 years later after the wolves have been here, this season (2007) we harvested only 1 spike bull and 4 deer out of 20 total hunters. On my first 3 hunts ,I went 15 days horseback guiding and never saw an elk!! Almost all of the hunters never wanted to see idaho again, yes very upset! I wander what this is doing to the economy of our small towns in Idaho, I here this from my friends,locals and pretty much everyone I talk to. I have yet to run into anyone on the trails,dirt roads,paved roads or on Main street that came to our county to see a wolf ! I guess most of them are in New York City watching them on TV as I have yet to meet one here, much less spend a dollar in our communities! I know as a fact there are hundreds or maybe thousands of elk hunters that will not return! Wow, wolves really do impact the economy of small idaho towns! I have talked and pleaded with our Fish & Game Dept in Salmon, Region 7 to no avail. They say basically nothing can be done? A few wolves have been taken out by the Feds only because of Beef kills. Not one wolf that I know of has been taken out because of Elk kills. About 5 - 8 years ago while lion hunting in my area in winter on snowmobile,I found 9 dead elk (8 cow elk & 1-6×6 bull) on Silver Creek road (a 14 mile stretch) all killed within a week in my opinion. All where killed by a pack of about 8 wolves in my opinion, by the tracks around the kills,the way the elk were killed, and the fact I lived with the pack in the area constantly. Wolf tracks everywhere,some of the elk eaten, some not, most had intestines pulled out some didn’t. All typical wolf kills I was used to seeing. Not one was covered by snow or brush as lions do. Almost all, had their nose’s pulled off, as usual for a wolf kill as I was used to seeing. A lion had never pulled a nose off an elk that I had ever found. Lions had never killed over 2 to 3 deer ( hardly ever an elk ) on the 14 mile stretch of Silver Creek road ever in a course of a winter the 20 + years I had been there! Also no lion tracks were found by me and my lion hunters over a 2 week period in the area when the elk were found. Obviously a case of binge killing by the wolf pack that was in there. I would swear to this on a stack of Bibles ” then and today”, they were killed by the pack in the area! On my way out on snowmachines with my hunter that day I ran into Jason Husselman (now Idaho Fish & Game Wolf biologist in the Salmon office) ” then a guy doing a wolf study” under Gary Power (now Idaho Fish & Game commissioner, Salmon area). I told Jason about the 9 dead elk on Silver Creek road and that in my opinion, they were all killed by the pack of 8 wolves in the area. He said he would check the kills, as he was doing the study on the impact of wolves on big game in the area. On return a few days later, I ran into him on snowmachines again a few days later. I asked him if he saw the elk kills on Silver creek? He said that he did. I asked him what did he write down in his study reports? He said that he determined that all 9 elk were killed by lion! And that he wrote it down as such in his reports on the wolf study he was doing under Gary Power. I was floored, to say the least and asked him if he was for the wolves or against them. He told me he was for the introduction of wolves and wanted them in idaho. The important thing to remember here is ; If the 9 wolf kills on Silver creek road that week were reported as lion kills, what about the rest of the study in the whole Salmon area that winter? Now both these guys are pulling good wages and have been for years working for the Idaho Fish & Game Dept. I hope that they are proud of their study. I just wanted them to know I didn’t forget about that special moment. Believe me I never will. Steve, Thanks for the opportunity to tell you my story. Feel free to send it to anyone you please.
Sincerely, Shane McAfee

[wolfbait]

jon... just read and re-read and then do it a few more time... WACenturions post... okay...

If you stay active in the field and have an open mind... maybe in about 20 years you will have a slight understanding of the complexity of this issue.

Thanks for the Great post Centurion.

x2

[jackelope]

jon... just read and re-read and then do it a few more time... WACenturions post... okay...

If you stay active in the field and have an open mind... maybe in about 20 years you will have a slight understanding of the complexity of this issue.

Thanks for the Great post Centurion.

x2

x3 

[boneaddict]

Very happy I finally took the time to read this thread and see Wacenturions post.   I find a lot of nonsense posted on this forum, this post however was pure gold.   Thank you for those words of wisdom. 

[jon.brown509]

Idaho Outfitter
I am a outfitter in Salmon for over 30 years and have seen the change! In 1996 our Unit 28 opening week saw 10 hunters harvest 9 bull elk. 1-7×7, 6-6×6’s and 2- 5×5’s. All Mature bulls,all happy hunters! 11 years later after the wolves have been here, this season (2007) we harvested only 1 spike bull and 4 deer out of 20 total hunters. On my first 3 hunts ,I went 15 days horseback guiding and never saw an elk!! Almost all of the hunters never wanted to see idaho again, yes very upset! I wander what this is doing to the economy of our small towns in Idaho, I here this from my friends,locals and pretty much everyone I talk to. I have yet to run into anyone on the trails,dirt roads,paved roads or on Main street that came to our county to see a wolf ! I guess most of them are in New York City watching them on TV as I have yet to meet one here, much less spend a dollar in our communities! I know as a fact there are hundreds or maybe thousands of elk hunters that will not return! Wow, wolves really do impact the economy of small idaho towns! I have talked and pleaded with our Fish & Game Dept in Salmon, Region 7 to no avail. They say basically nothing can be done? A few wolves have been taken out by the Feds only because of Beef kills. Not one wolf that I know of has been taken out because of Elk kills. About 5 - 8 years ago while lion hunting in my area in winter on snowmobile,I found 9 dead elk (8 cow elk & 1-6×6 bull) on Silver Creek road (a 14 mile stretch) all killed within a week in my opinion. All where killed by a pack of about 8 wolves in my opinion, by the tracks around the kills,the way the elk were killed, and the fact I lived with the pack in the area constantly. Wolf tracks everywhere,some of the elk eaten, some not, most had intestines pulled out some didn’t. All typical wolf kills I was used to seeing. Not one was covered by snow or brush as lions do. Almost all, had their nose’s pulled off, as usual for a wolf kill as I was used to seeing. A lion had never pulled a nose off an elk that I had ever found. Lions had never killed over 2 to 3 deer ( hardly ever an elk ) on the 14 mile stretch of Silver Creek road ever in a course of a winter the 20 + years I had been there! Also no lion tracks were found by me and my lion hunters over a 2 week period in the area when the elk were found. Obviously a case of binge killing by the wolf pack that was in there. I would swear to this on a stack of Bibles ” then and today”, they were killed by the pack in the area! On my way out on snowmachines with my hunter that day I ran into Jason Husselman (now Idaho Fish & Game Wolf biologist in the Salmon office) ” then a guy doing a wolf study” under Gary Power (now Idaho Fish & Game commissioner, Salmon area). I told Jason about the 9 dead elk on Silver Creek road and that in my opinion, they were all killed by the pack of 8 wolves in the area. He said he would check the kills, as he was doing the study on the impact of wolves on big game in the area. On return a few days later, I ran into him on snowmachines again a few days later. I asked him if he saw the elk kills on Silver creek? He said that he did. I asked him what did he write down in his study reports? He said that he determined that all 9 elk were killed by lion! And that he wrote it down as such in his reports on the wolf study he was doing under Gary Power. I was floored, to say the least and asked him if he was for the wolves or against them. He told me he was for the introduction of wolves and wanted them in idaho. The important thing to remember here is ; If the 9 wolf kills on Silver creek road that week were reported as lion kills, what about the rest of the study in the whole Salmon area that winter? Now both these guys are pulling good wages and have been for years working for the Idaho Fish & Game Dept. I hope that they are proud of their study. I just wanted them to know I didn’t forget about that special moment. Believe me I never will. Steve, Thanks for the opportunity to tell you my story. Feel free to send it to anyone you please.
Sincerely, Shane McAfee

      That sucks, Let me tell you one thing called integrity it's rare, very rare nowadays.That biologist you ran into has none. As for the "9 dead elk (8 cow elk & 1-6×6 bull) on Silver Creek road (a 14 mile stretch) all killed within a week in my opinion. All where killed by a pack of about 8 wolves in my opinion, by the tracks around the kills,the way the elk were killed, and the fact I lived with the pack in the area constantly. Wolf tracks everywhere,some of the elk eaten, some not, most had intestines pulled out some didn’t" .This common in winter for a wolf pack.See as it gets later in winter they only eat the inside's because the meat has no energy value or protein in it for them.So they kill openly like that to just eat the proteins from the liver and heart.This biologist should have had the ball's to tell you the truth and that it is a wolf kill and this is why it's happening instead if being the coward he is. 
    Thank you WACenturion for your time ,but as a biologist shouldn't you be serving the wildlife and habitat instead of the hunters and fisherman ? "not being disrespectful just wanting open advice "one reason I talk so much on here" . I personally DON'T like wolves but they have a place in the wild. This thread is on YNP not WA OR Idaho  but YNP. I have a far great complex view of this issue I have since I ran into my first one Bow hunting in the Water shed there were 3 that had me scared for my life.Since I didn't know how many there were I could only see three about 60 yards off.I climb the nearest tree I could This was in  2007,I was told I didn't see wolves by Tom Schirm the POS biologist down there in walla walla.That pack still hasn't been confirmed.Even though hundreds of people know where they are at.
   I have a lot of learning to do yes ,but I have done a hell of lot more to help than most who mumble and grown about BS on here.If my words are read by blind eye's than were going to have a disagreement. I hope to help hunters and give them better game and more opportunity's to harvest or help wildlife than there are right now.For this to be done you need to manage predators and get them under control and in a hurry.I know how fast they can spread and reproduce as well as make life hell for hunting.My family owns some of the best hunting in western Montana,It's gone to hell and a hand basket due to wolves clearing game out of there.My grandpa is lucky to see a whitetail deer in the back grass fields where growing up there was always at least 20 head out there.I have a strong view of this issue.For one thing that the amount of wolves right now are way too high and they need to be much ,much lower.In order for this to happen you need the right people in the right places.To help get trapping allowed in WA and the use of dog's .
       All of my instructors only work about 2 to 3 quarters a year in school due to the amount of contract and field work they still do.All of them are highly respected out here in the western U.S. as biologist's,Forester's,and Recreational management types.One of them was the lead on the American prairie reserve in Montana.
     I know most of you have already made up your minds that if someone doesn't think like you, than there wrong and no matter what your right.If you keep looking back how are you supposed to continue forward ? 

[wolfbait]

 "I know most of you have already made up your minds that if someone doesn't think like you, than there wrong and no matter what your right.If you keep looking back how are you supposed to continue forward ?"

If you don't learn from past history, you will get to suffer through the same BS twice. Uncontrolled wolves or wildlife we can't have both.

[jon.brown509]

Wolves are being controlled in YNP and there is more life in YNP  than ever before.

[Dhoey07]

Wolves are being controlled in YNP and there is more life in YNP  than ever before.

I hope that you are being sarcastic, because your own graph showed us otherwise

[jon.brown509]

Wolves are being controlled in YNP and there is more life in YNP  than ever before.

I hope that you are being sarcastic, because your own graph showed us otherwise

 Have you even watched the video that started this thread?
and YNP is very much alive with more animals than just Elk

[Wacenturion]

"Thank you WACenturion for your time ,but as a biologist shouldn't you be serving the wildlife and habitat instead of the hunters and fisherman ? "not being disrespectful just wanting open advice "one reason I talk so much on here" . I personally DON'T like wolves but they have a place in the wild."

To give you a simple answer let me just say, you are serving wildlife and habitat when you serve the public, primarily the hunters and fishermen who have funded wildlife management in this country for decades.

It a cycle....if you manage properly to protect and restore habitat, wildlife flourishes.  When wildlife, which we will call a product for the sake of this discussion flourishes, so does interest in pursuing that product.  More licenses are sold, and in addition many more dollars are spent across the board in communities for lodging, food, gas, equipment, guide services, etc.  It get broader when you start thinking major expenditures like boats, SUV's, campers.  The demand grows because there is a product out there that can provide opportunity and sustain itself in appropriate healthy numbers.

As one of my duties during my career I had the pleasure to manage Washington's Wild Turkey Program for 20 years, as a lesser part of other programs I was responsible for.  Many in WDFW, in decision making positions I might add, both in HQ and the regions themselves, didn't want turkeys because they weren't native or they were just something else to have to deal with.  They were going to compete with native species,  they were possibly going to out compete western gray squirrels and sharp-tailed grouse, they were going to eat rare slugs,  they were going to pull the moon out of it's gravitational orbit...whetever frickin excuse they could dream up.  For those 20 years I continually had to answer the same stupid questions, and from educated biologists none the less.  Fortunately I don't give up very easy and decided early on to lose an occasional battle to eventually win the war. 

The point I'm leading to is they also said it wouldn't work, we tried it in the 60's.  Yeah, we did.  Couple small releases and that was it.  Without new genes into the two small populations we had, turkeys didn't maintain themselves much beyond 15-20 years in two areas.  Turkey tag sales went down to I believe a low of 62 at one point which was 1987 if I recall.  The new introductions statewide and follow up introductions of additional birds as well as trap and transfer in state over that 20 year period, gave us what we now have today...three different subspecies and multiple bird limits.  Tag sales are through the roof. 

That is a prime example of what I'm referring to above.  Kind of like the movie "Field of Dreams".....  "If you build it they will come".  If you translate that to wildlife management when you put a product out there the public will utilize it.  That equates to dollars.  Problem is wildlife agencies are notorious for not putting those funds from licenses and funding sources like PR and DJ back into the resource and on the ground.  That's too much work.  Easier to go the meeting and planning route.  Upland bird numbers in Washington is a prime example of ignoring the problem and not putting revenues on the ground.

Ask yourself who actually spends serious money on fish and wildlife.  It's the people who buy licenses and all the related expenditures I mentioned above.  Like wolfbait mentioned....you don't see many folks coming to Idaho to see wolves.  Ask yourself another question and try to put yourself in the shoes of a normal person.  Would you like to visit Yellowstone and see elk everywhere as well as Bison, Moose and other animals.   Or would you perfer just to possibly have a chance to see a wolf or a pack and not much more?  I know what I would want. 

Fish and Wildlife agencies rolled over years ago to the invisible environmentalist monster they assumed is out there.  Those agencies bought into the political correctness BS.  Instead of forcing the tree huggers to make their case they just rolled on many issues, rather than telling them to prove it or shut up.  Just look at the difference of opinions between Al Gore and the global warming crew vs. Alaska Fish and Wildlife biologists when it comes to polar bear status.  My money is on Alaska Fish and Game.  When did all these city dwelling, save the earth types, become credible sources of scientific data?

The negatives with wolf introductions are immense.  Not only does it affect wildlife and the associated recreation use and expenditures that go with it, but everyday life for a magnitude of rural folks who have to now tolerate their presence and have their livelihood affected in a negative way by them.  Just my opinion.

[Axle]

Wolves are being controlled in YNP and there is more life in YNP  than ever before.

I hope that you are being sarcastic, because your own graph showed us otherwise



 Have you even watched the video that started this thread?
and YNP is very much alive with more animals than just Elk

Yep! more alive than ever - with mice and rats!
The wolves ate the coyotes which ate the mice and rats.
Now lime disease can rule the park. Ticks need a food source after all.

[jon.brown509]

Yeah...One problem with that logic.See when one mesocarnivore goes down other's will raise, if you saw that "pretty picture" as you put it . You would have seen a fox ,Fox populations have almost doubled in YNP and now there's as many foxes as coyotes first time since the YNP was ran by the army has that happened.   

[KFhunter]

the fox/wolf relationship is speculation at this point.  There's been a few areas that fox seemed to have gained in population but there is no way to attribute that to wolves.

Antelope I buy into that theory and it's one of the upshots of having wolves,  but I'm not ready to buy into the red fox theory.   Besides red fox is the most widespread and abundant Canidae out there.