The ecology of fear: Elk responses to wolves in Yellowstone are not what we thou

[bearpaw]

Not sure why you singled out outfitters and private camps. When there are fewer elk the hunting is tougher for everyone, except maybe for you and Idahohntr who both seem to claim wolves haven't affected hunting much. 

I have no idea where you derived that I am singling out anybody.  Outfitters and private camps, don't those two entities pretty much include all hunters?  What else would there be, private commuter hunters maybe?

I am largely indifferent to outfitters and have no grudge against them.  I know some that are outstanding and contribute to their local communities.  I know others that are as crooked as a snake and do nothing for the local communities.

I've never hunted with one and doubt I ever will.

Still seeing the need for passive aggressive jabs are we?

Apparently I misunderstood your post, I thought you were making the jab.

However, you do continuously claim that hunting is just fine for you as if wolves have had no effect. That sir is patently false as can be proven by statistics that are a matter of record. I can point out numerous quotes you've made to that effect in case you can't seem to remember.

You can quote me all you want.  My stance hasn't changed one bit, and my stance is based on what I have observed with my own eyes.

I am pretty well convinced at this point that you cannot even read my posts objectively, as you were able to take the statement I made and twist it into an insult. 

I'll second Idaho, you just keep telling everyone that the elk population in Montana went down the toilet and will never come back.  We all know wolves eat everything until they are wallowing without food and the whole population starves to death.  Happens all the time, right?

While everyone else is believing this I'll still be hunting elk.

Who's twisting the facts?

Eastern Montana has excellent elk populations with little impacts by wolves. Western Montana has significantly lower elk populations since wolves and cougar over populated. It's common to see wolf advocates trying to say wolves have not affected elk hunting in Montana by combining the eastern herds together with the western herds and claiming wolves have had no impact, in this way localized impacts are hidden. The herd counts, success rates, reduced seasons, and eliminated elk seasons in western Montana prove the localized impacts. Sure the wolves can't get every elk, but they have caused significant impacts, no question about that.

http://www.ktvq.com/news/gardiner-elk-hunt-falls-victim-to-wolves/

Gardiner elk hunt falls victim to wolves

GARDINER - One of the consequences of "Living with Wolves" is the elimination of a special late season elk hunt near Gardiner that has been part of the Montana hunting scene for the past 35 years. The January hunt was firstconducted in 1976, to help manage elk migrating out of Yellowstone National Park. At that time, the park's northern herd had reached as many as 12-thousand animals.

But once wolves were reintroduced to the park, the northern herd's numbers started declining. In 2005, game managers counted 9,545 elk. Three years later that figure had dropped to 3,912 animals, and by 2009 the herd's population was down to 3,511 elk. This year, FWP's aerial surveys of the northern herd outside the park's boundaries counted only 2,236 animals.

Last week, Montana's Fish and Game Commission voted to end the late season hunt citing elk numbers that had fallen below target levels due to predation mainly from wolves, but also from grizzly bears. The Montana Elk Plan established in 2004 called for a population of between 3-thousand to 5-thousand elk in the portion of the Northern elk herd that winters in Montana.

I'm not twisting anything.

Read up on HB 42 and Debbie Barrett, and you might gain a better understanding of elk numbers in MT.  Thousands of elk died in the Missouri Breaks because numbers were "over objective".  I've never heard you complain about that.  Many elk died in MT because of very aggressive antlerless hunts that were a result of HB 42, including the Madison Valley, Big Hole, and Bitterroot.

What do I know though?  I'm so oblivious that I've been fooling myself over the last 15 years, thinking that elk hunting was still good.  I must not have killed the elk that I did, because they couldn't have been there since you've shown me the "statistics".  Wow, I now be edumacated.

Edit:  I will reassert my opinion that you cannot take anything I type objectively.  Note your statement about me twisting facts and you reference the Gardiner late hunt.  I did not even state any facts, only observations I've made.  Apparently, that is twisting the facts

My same feeling!

Please see the topic title, the discussion is about elk, wolves, and habitat in YNP. This is the wolf board, but I imagine you'll continue trying to change the subject from wolves, try to blame habitat, try to blame hunters, you can even continue to claim how unfair I am to you because I don't accept your wolf ideology. I suppose that's to be expected since the numbers and facts refute many of your claims that elk hunting is as good as ever. "I'm certainly not surprised or fooled by the direction you and a few others try to steer all the wolf topics!" 

[bearpaw]

The ecology of fear: Elk responses to wolves in Yellowstone are not what we thought

http://www.westernconfluence.org/?p=131

[JLS]

My same feeling!

Please see the topic title, the discussion is about elk, wolves, and habitat in YNP. This is the wolf board, but I imagine you'll continue trying to change the subject from wolves, try to blame habitat, try to blame hunters, you can even continue to claim how unfair I am to you because I don't accept your wolf ideology. I suppose that's to be expected since the numbers and facts refute many of your claims that elk hunting is as good as ever. "I'm certainly not surprised or fooled by the direction you and a few others try to steer all the wolf topics!" 

Let's see, my first comment in this topic was DIRECTLY related to the article until you decided I was "singling out" outfitters and private camps and decided to take issue with it..

When have I ever said you are unfair?  Get real man.  Your habit of putting words in my mouth is getting a little bit out there.

 I could care less if you accept my wolf ideology.  I could care less if you agree with my real world experiences.  My only point was that there is a lot more to the equation than wolves, no matter how badly some folks want to pin it on one single factor.

[bearpaw]

My same feeling!

Please see the topic title, the discussion is about elk, wolves, and habitat in YNP. This is the wolf board, but I imagine you'll continue trying to change the subject from wolves, try to blame habitat, try to blame hunters, you can even continue to claim how unfair I am to you because I don't accept your wolf ideology. I suppose that's to be expected since the numbers and facts refute many of your claims that elk hunting is as good as ever. "I'm certainly not surprised or fooled by the direction you and a few others try to steer all the wolf topics!" 

Let's see, my first comment in this topic was DIRECTLY related to the article until you decided I was "singling out" outfitters and private camps and decided to take issue with it..

When have I ever said you are unfair?  Get real man.  Your habit of putting words in my mouth is getting a little bit out there.

 I could care less if you accept my wolf ideology.  I could care less if you agree with my real world experiences.  My only point was that there is a lot more to the equation than wolves, no matter how badly some folks want to pin it on one single factor.

Of course wolves are not the only single factor every time, but in many cases wolves are the primary factor upsetting the balance we've had for years and causing elk numbers to drop or preventing elk numbers from recovering from other factors. I wished you would get real man, it's documented fact!

[JLS]

I'm going to go put on my chicken little hat and plan next year's elk hunting activities

[bearpaw]

   fair enough, good luck with your plans