Sitka Re: Male or Female, shoot or don't shoot?

[Sitka_Blacktail]

When we hunted cats in Washington we hunted whatever the hunter wanted, the population needed and still needs thinning. I've helped hunters kill hundreds of cougars of both sexes over the last 37 years.

During my first 10 years in Idaho we had what seemed to be over abundant cougar numbers, again I allowed hunters to shoot what they wanted, even though most would prefer taking a tom.

During the last several years Idaho has hunted cats and bear pretty hard to compensate for wolf impacts and has successfully reduced the populations to a more acceptable levels in most areas. Currently it does not seem that shooting females is needed much and by switching to tom only hunts I seem to be attracting more cougar hunting interest. But if the cougar population in my area seems to get too robust I would advocate taking more females. Currently there is a quota of 22 females in my area which gets filled most years by other hunters.

I am licensed to guide for wolves and think every wolf seen should be shot. When IDFG gets the number under 200 then we need to reduce the harvest so that we do not endanger relisting. Otherwise I would say keep on shooting, we don't need any wolves, hunters can manage big game herds, wolves are just something the wolf lovers think they need in the lower 48. Wolves should certainly at least be confined to the wilderness areas, such as how WY is managing wolves.

Glad to see you espousing responsible management, as far as Cougars go. Maybe you'll see the light on wolves some day. I'm all in favor of REGULATED hunting of any species as long as they aren't endangered.

But if there is a quota on females in your area, why wouldn't you let one of your hunters shoot a female if the quota allowed it? As you stated, they get taken by other hunters anyway so it wouldn't change anything if your hunter killed one.

Here's a guy who's views on cougars mirror your recent opinion on wolves. It's all about the dollars. That isn't management by science it's management for profit.  http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

By the way, Mt Lions actually do attack and kill humans on a fairly regular basis. They also kill pets and domestic farm animals in great numbers. They also spread diseases such as  toxoplasmosis and bartonella, or cat scratch disease, which can also infect humans. So really, any argument that can be used against wolves, can be used against cougars. And any argument that is ridiculous when used against cougars is also ridiculous when used against wolves.

I think if Idaho can survive 2,000 to 3,000 cougars, It can survive 1,000 wolves. The same as Washington can survive a couple hundred wolves if it can survive 2,000 to 2,500 cougars. The 25,000+ black bear and 50,000+ coyote populations in Washington are way more of a detriment to other wildlife than wolves and cougars will ever be.

[Machias]

Way to Hijack the thread there.    What's wrong Sitka, going with what was originally agreed to, 100 wolves in Idaho and they would be considered recovered?  If they would have stuck to that you'd even have sportsman cheering the recovery, but no you want 1000 wolves, 10 times what was originally agreed upon and promised to the citizens of Idaho.

[bearpaw]

Way to Hijack the thread there.

You can count on these "wolf lovers" to hijack just about every topic they can to promote their godly wolves.   

I think if Idaho can survive 2,000 to 3,000 cougars, It can survive 1,000 wolves. The same as Washington can survive a couple hundred wolves if it can survive 2,000 to 2,500 cougars. The 25,000+ black bear and 50,000+ coyote populations in Washington are way more of a detriment to other wildlife than wolves and cougars will ever be.

Your comment and your understanding of hunters and predation is so lacking of knowledge that I laughed to myself and almost didn't waste my time replying.

Wolves will greatly exceed a couple hundred in WA just as they did in Idaho and Montana, WA probably already has 200 wolves but WDFW hires trappers that are not capable of catching the wolves that are here.

Wyoming has done the best job at preventing wolf overpopulation by making 80% of WY a shoot on site management zone.

Idaho is actively trying to offset wolf predation by reducing other predators with double bear tags, double cougar tags, and extended seasons on bear and cougars. If all predator numbers are reduced enough then obviously some wolves can fit in without upsetting the balance of ungulates needed to maintain a population. What happened in Idaho is that uncontrolled wolf numbers, at least 10x what was originally agreed upon in the wolf introduction plan, were forced onto Idaho. Excessive wolves have destroyed several elk herds (DOCUMENTED FACT!) and reduced much of the state's moose herd.

Washington is on a fast track to repeat this process, it's going to get worse in WA too because the wolf lovers will never quit trying to stop reasonable management in WA, the biggest differences being that politics in western WA will likely prevent wolf management until wolves endanger residents of pugetropolis, only then wolves may possibly be managed. However, with Washington's much larger human population it's possible that local E WA residents will get fed up with wolves like locals did in Idaho and wolf management will happen in populated rural areas.

It's the wolf lovers who have caused the backlash against wolves. Many hunters (including myself) would not have been so opposed to wolves if they were introduced reasonably as originally proposed within acceptable levels with careful management along the way to let numbers increase slowly so that severe ungulate declines did not occur. Knowledgeable hunters predicted what would happen in Id/MT/WY and they are predicting what will happen in Washington.

[Eli346]

Thanks Bearpaw!

[WAcoyotehunter]

As far as predators go, I would rather see a cougar than a wolf any day. 

I would like to see Idaho beat their wolf number back a ways, more for elk numbers, and hound safety than anything else.

[Machias]

 

[jasnt]

It drives me crazy when some one says endangered wolves. They are not endangered. Never where and never will be!!!!!! Even when there where only a couple left in the lower 48 there numbers have always been strong in Canada. Yup just a few miles north. Always been there and always will be. The wolves range may have been shrunk for a while but it was never endangered! we just want the wolves to be managed. It would take decades and tons of money to get us back to "pre-introduction" numbers. You need a serious history lesson if you dont understand that. Teddy Roosevelt would be rolling over in his grave(and probably is) if he knew what position we were back in.

[jon.brown509]

  I'm pretty sure Teddy wouldn't be rolling over in his grave One of the first conservationist's ever once he saw and realized what was happening in his time and how bad it was.I thank him for all the lands everyone get access too because he single handy saved most of what we call wild lands today.
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/R/RO026.html
fun read on Teddy wolf hunting lol
     Now not to be disrespectful but to say real quick Wyoming has the best management plan for wolves  ? have you see Wyoming? Tell me how green is it? how much of it is being eroded due to over grazing ?(PROVEN RESEARCH/WITH DOCUMENTED FACTS). In my opinion  Wyoming has the worst wildlife management plan when it comes to wolves and predators and wildlife in general  .Now if you look at Montana the way they have been handling wolves for 20 plus years it is outstanding in my opinion. They have a blue print it is there it's just getting other states to follow that's the hard part.I don't see Washington ever getting over populated with wolves or Idaho(Sorry there well never be 1,000 plus dogs in Idaho Sitka). Since wolves hit there peaking point there going to go down than stabilize and not go up again so what your seeing now should remain for here on out "hopefully".
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/apr/03/idaho-wolf-population-decreased-by-11-percent-in/

"Lil light reading for Idaho wolf population" Now if you want to take down the population you need to drop females only males well always be around to mate  females wont so as long as you take down females you can successfully take down a population.If it was me with my wolf tag I would aim for the females

[Humptulips]

You seriously think that hunters are going to be able to sex wolves before they take a shot?

[bearpaw]

I'm pretty sure Teddy wouldn't be rolling over in his grave One of the first conservationist's ever once he saw and realized what was happening in his time and how bad it was.I thank him for all the lands everyone get access too because he single handy saved most of what we call wild lands today.
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/R/RO026.html
fun read on Teddy wolf hunting lol
     Now not to be disrespectful but to say real quick Wyoming has the best management plan for wolves  ? have you see Wyoming? Tell me how green is it? how much of it is being eroded due to over grazing ?(PROVEN RESEARCH/WITH DOCUMENTED FACTS). In my opinion  Wyoming has the worst wildlife management plan when it comes to wolves and predators and wildlife in general  .Now if you look at Montana the way they have been handling wolves for 20 plus years it is outstanding in my opinion. They have a blue print it is there it's just getting other states to follow that's the hard part.I don't see Washington ever getting over populated with wolves or Idaho(Sorry there well never be 1,000 plus dogs in Idaho Sitka). Since wolves hit there peaking point there going to go down than stabilize and not go up again so what your seeing now should remain for here on out "hopefully".
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/apr/03/idaho-wolf-population-decreased-by-11-percent-in/

"Lil light reading for Idaho wolf population" Now if you want to take down the population you need to drop females only males well always be around to mate  females wont so as long as you take down females you can successfully take down a population.If it was me with my wolf tag I would aim for the females

I think you are confusing land management with wolf management. Additionally, the hunters in WY that I know are much happier with wolf management than the hunters I know in MT. Just sayin.... 

You seriously think that hunters are going to be able to sex wolves before they take a shot?

  x2

[Machias]

If it was me with my wolf tag I would aim for the females

I sure hope that was a tongue in cheeck comment, otherwise that might be one of the dumber comments I've seen on HuntWA.

[jon.brown509]

Yeah I should have know better lol most of the hunters would just drop the first fuzzy wolf like creature they find lol 
  But if you could get a good glass on them and look for the lil kicks that the female has over the male it becomes fairly easy to spot the difference between the 2.
 
 but land and wildlife management  are going hand in hand ,bearpaw there's a really neat read once i find the link i'll send it to you on efforts to get Wyoming back to a decent system just because  hunters are happy doesn't mean everyone else is which is one good reason Why Montana has the upper hand on there blueprint

[Houndhunter]

I'm pretty sure Teddy wouldn't be rolling over in his grave One of the first conservationist's ever once he saw and realized what was happening in his time and how bad it was.I thank him for all the lands everyone get access too because he single handy saved most of what we call wild lands today.
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/R/RO026.html
fun read on Teddy wolf hunting lol
     Now not to be disrespectful but to say real quick Wyoming has the best management plan for wolves  ? have you see Wyoming? Tell me how green is it? how much of it is being eroded due to over grazing ?(PROVEN RESEARCH/WITH DOCUMENTED FACTS). In my opinion  Wyoming has the worst wildlife management plan when it comes to wolves and predators and wildlife in general  .Now if you look at Montana the way they have been handling wolves for 20 plus years it is outstanding in my opinion. They have a blue print it is there it's just getting other states to follow that's the hard part.I don't see Washington ever getting over populated with wolves or Idaho(Sorry there well never be 1,000 plus dogs in Idaho Sitka). Since wolves hit there peaking point there going to go down than stabilize and not go up again so what your seeing now should remain for here on out "hopefully".
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/apr/03/idaho-wolf-population-decreased-by-11-percent-in/

"Lil light reading for Idaho wolf population" Now if you want to take down the population you need to drop females only males well always be around to mate  females wont so as long as you take down females you can successfully take down a population.If it was me with my wolf tag I would aim for the females

Huh? Have you been to MT? Wolves suck here and really screw things up, management on them is terrible. Ive had to pass up on lion tracks with my hounds because of wolves, know a guy who's lost 6 hounds to wolves in two years. WY has the best system out there, shoot on site . Not like that isn't going on here in MT

[idahohuntr]

  Since wolves hit there peaking point there going to go down than stabilize and not go up again so what your seeing now should remain for here on out "hopefully".
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/apr/03/idaho-wolf-population-decreased-by-11-percent-in/

In the not too distant future Idaho will release the 2013 wolf population estimates and again this year the population has declined...with wolves being managed by the state I don't think any reasonable person can espouse any kind of doom and gloom scenario for elk hunting in Idaho.

[Jonathan_S]

Yeah I should have know better lol most of the hunters would just drop the first fuzzy wolf like creature they find lol 
  But if you could get a good glass on them and look for the lil kicks that the female has over the male it becomes fairly easy to spot the difference between the 2.

  how much time does the average wolf sighting take?  Get good glass on them?     you must be a sneaky one.

[JLS]

I'm pretty sure Teddy wouldn't be rolling over in his grave One of the first conservationist's ever once he saw and realized what was happening in his time and how bad it was.I thank him for all the lands everyone get access too because he single handy saved most of what we call wild lands today.
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/R/RO026.html
fun read on Teddy wolf hunting lol
     Now not to be disrespectful but to say real quick Wyoming has the best management plan for wolves  ? have you see Wyoming? Tell me how green is it? how much of it is being eroded due to over grazing ?(PROVEN RESEARCH/WITH DOCUMENTED FACTS). In my opinion  Wyoming has the worst wildlife management plan when it comes to wolves and predators and wildlife in general  .Now if you look at Montana the way they have been handling wolves for 20 plus years it is outstanding in my opinion. They have a blue print it is there it's just getting other states to follow that's the hard part.I don't see Washington ever getting over populated with wolves or Idaho(Sorry there well never be 1,000 plus dogs in Idaho Sitka). Since wolves hit there peaking point there going to go down than stabilize and not go up again so what your seeing now should remain for here on out "hopefully".
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/apr/03/idaho-wolf-population-decreased-by-11-percent-in/

"Lil light reading for Idaho wolf population" Now if you want to take down the population you need to drop females only males well always be around to mate  females wont so as long as you take down females you can successfully take down a population.If it was me with my wolf tag I would aim for the females

Huh? Have you been to MT? Wolves suck here and really screw things up, management on them is terrible. Ive had to pass up on lion tracks with my hounds because of wolves, know a guy who's lost 6 hounds to wolves in two years. WY has the best system out there, shoot on site . Not like that isn't going on here in MT

You can shoot three a year, for almost seven months out of the year.  How many folks do you know who are running out of wolf tags?

[Houndhunter]

Hardly anyone, wolves dont just pop out and present themselves to be shot. I continually see tracks but have yet to see one. They need to be classified as non game animals so you can shoot on site anytime of the year. Even with a liberal season like that it would still not do much to the population.

[AspenBud]

Huh? Have you been to MT? Wolves suck here and really screw things up, management on them is terrible. Ive had to pass up on lion tracks with my hounds because of wolves, know a guy who's lost 6 hounds to wolves in two years.

Again, western states would do well to follow the Midwest's example and encourage people to report dog/wolf encounters when hunting so the information can be passed on to other hound and bird dog hunters.

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/wildlifehabitat/wolf/dogdeps.html

[AspenBud]

  Since wolves hit there peaking point there going to go down than stabilize and not go up again so what your seeing now should remain for here on out "hopefully".
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/apr/03/idaho-wolf-population-decreased-by-11-percent-in/

In the not too distant future Idaho will release the 2013 wolf population estimates and again this year the population has declined...with wolves being managed by the state I don't think any reasonable person can espouse any kind of doom and gloom scenario for elk hunting in Idaho.

Like I said, my bet is as Idaho gets closer to the 150 mark you can expect calls for reinstituting ESA protection to get much louder and will probably happen. The governor there thinks he's doing everyone a favor, but if (again, big if) trends continue he may cause a big headache for everyone. If you can wipe out a population of wolves that fast...

[jon.brown509]

   Ok i'm going to try not to miss anyone's questions. Yes I was living in Libby ,Ronan  Mt as well as walla walla wa,I hunt in Montana out side of Libby,as for taking down wolves you can't just walk out in the woods with a beer and expect to find one,if your out walking around and stumble on one your lucky if you can set up ambush sites you'll have great success ,My uncle with all  my cousins tag out with taking down wolves,The system is simple look at the collar chart readings available normally by internet  Than transfer to a topo map and grid out the area put out cameras and than get timing down with movement than set a ambush site and take a pack down as they enter it.Some other things are required "traps, and such" but if you put in the effort you well take down wolves pretty simple. Anyhow they enjoy it out there ,also tag out with elk and deer ever year as well lol 
 

[AspenBud]

   Ok i'm going to try not to miss anyone's questions. Yes I was living in Libby ,Ronan  Mt as well as walla walla wa,I hunt in Montana out side of Libby,as for taking down wolves you can't just walk out in the woods with a beer and expect to find one,if your out walking around and stumble on one your lucky if you can set up ambush sites you'll have great success ,My uncle with all  my cousins tag out with taking down wolves,The system is simple look at the collar chart readings available normally by internet  Than transfer to a topo map and grid out the area put out cameras and than get timing down with movement than set a ambush site and take a pack down as they enter it.Some other things are required "traps, and such" but if you put in the effort you well take down wolves pretty simple. Anyhow they enjoy it out there ,also tag out with elk and deer ever year as well lol 

I believe one of the first wolves killed in Wisconsin when their hunt started was by a couple that called some wolves in using a wounded rabbit call. The wolves walked in and they shot one.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/outdoors/a-howling-success-for-boyd-man-b278u24-174688331.html

That said, I peruse other forums than this and I remember trappers and hunters in Michigan confidently saying they would fill the quota for the Michigan hunt. They fell short by almost half by the time the season closed.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12205-32569--,00.html?source=govdelivery&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery

[deaner]

You seriously think that hunters are going to be able to sex wolves before they take a shot?
[/quote

maybe if they pet them first and tell them theyre pretty 

[AspenBud]

You seriously think that hunters are going to be able to sex wolves before they take a shot?

maybe if they pet them first and tell them theyre pretty 

If you look at the article I posted regarding the wolf hunter in Wisconsin...

"Nitz immediately began scouting public land near his home. He found what he was looking for in a clear-cut in Eau Claire County.

On Monday he set traps at midday and then returned to the site with Shelley in late afternoon.

At about 5 p.m. they surrounded themselves with branches in a blind on a high point in the clearing. They could see about 250 yards in each direction.

Nitz used a recording to emit a distressed rabbit call.

The first response came from a murder of crows. Then, just minutes later, the first wolf howled.

Over the next hour, the wolves moved closer. There was little wind, Nitz said, and the animals circled.

Most of the wolves were to the northeast of the blind. But at about 6:15, a wolf howled very close, from the west.

Nitz turned around and saw a wolf standing broadside at 47 yards. He leveled his .243 rifle and squeezed off a shot."

There is hunting wolves and then there is hunting wolves. If you're hoping for a chance encounter I think you're right. Someone more serious at the game however might have a chance at picking what they want to shoot.

Regardless of how easy it is or is not to do, he has a point, shooting males will have much less of an affect than shooting females. Males don't give birth to multiple pups.

[bearpaw]

   Ok i'm going to try not to miss anyone's questions. Yes I was living in Libby ,Ronan  Mt as well as walla walla wa,I hunt in Montana out side of Libby,as for taking down wolves you can't just walk out in the woods with a beer and expect to find one,if your out walking around and stumble on one your lucky if you can set up ambush sites you'll have great success ,My uncle with all  my cousins tag out with taking down wolves,The system is simple look at the collar chart readings available normally by internet  Than transfer to a topo map and grid out the area put out cameras and than get timing down with movement than set a ambush site and take a pack down as they enter it.Some other things are required "traps, and such" but if you put in the effort you well take down wolves pretty simple. Anyhow they enjoy it out there ,also tag out with elk and deer ever year as well lol 

Sounds like a good way to hunt them, you mention "collar chart readings", are you suggesting that a person can look up recent wolf movements online?

[bearpaw]

Yeah I should have know better lol most of the hunters would just drop the first fuzzy wolf like creature they find lol 
  But if you could get a good glass on them and look for the lil kicks that the female has over the male it becomes fairly easy to spot the difference between the 2.
 
 but land and wildlife management  are going hand in hand ,bearpaw there's a really neat read once i find the link i'll send it to you on efforts to get Wyoming back to a decent system just because  hunters are happy doesn't mean everyone else is which is one good reason Why Montana has the upper hand on there blueprint

We'll have to agree to disagree on WY management. Most hunters, ranchers, and rural residents I know believe WY has by far the best plan (Shoot on sight in the 80% of the state to keep wolves confined to the park and wilderness where they belong!".

I would like to know more about reliably sexing wolves. I don't understand what you were talking about "look for the lil kicks that the female has over the male". Not sure what you meant by that?

[jon.brown509]

Yes you can
"http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01502/ ,,,,,, http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/gray_wolf/reporting/sightings.html ,,,,,, http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/gray_wolf/.... http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wolf-news/the-daily-howler-1-22-13-edition/...... http://www.google.com/imgres?client=firefox-a&hs=7ov&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1440&bih=781&tbm=isch&tbnid=1-p9FuAUlrPdWM%3A&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fnwsportsmanmag.com%2Fwolf-news%2Fthe-daily-howler-wa-wolf-killed-in-bc-new-activity-area-found-in-ne-or-edition%2F&docid=RDLkIS6bgnIN-M&imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnwsportsmanmag.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F10%2Fwolf-map-550x427.jpg&w=550&h=427&ei=lHH7UpKoF8rCyQHD_YHgCg&zoom=1&ved=0CLcBEIQcMB4&iact=rc&dur=646&page=2&start=25&ndsp=30

 Try to get maps of every year normally in the wolf reports ,than use every  available sight and  start to do some over lay with the years you can find possible den spots main hunting areas ect, because wolves are extremely territorial you well see patterns quickly,than bring them to scale over lay them on a earth map now remember to do this by grid squares so you can be accurate in every square,
and to tell the sex is learning the lil things they do ear moves , leg kicking ,stance, tail movement like watching male and feamale dogs of certain breeds you end up seeing lil things they do ? does that make much sense ?   

[AspenBud]

One thing that I've noticed about this topic here. It focuses a lot on politics and not much on how to actually hunt and even trap wolves let alone anything about wolf behavior. Now that I think about that I've never seen that here before.