Goat Tags every other year

[blessed]

Any one know why we only get one goat tag in a lifetime? I remember when we could put in for them every other year!

[archery288]

It's funny you say that Smokey! My dad and I were just talking about that over dinner the other night and how they drew 13 tags and filled 12 of them over the years... Now I'll be lucky to ever draw one... 

[DOUBLELUNG]

Not picking on you AT ALL - but the picture of the 3 nannies on the Scout tells the tale.  Too many tags, for too many years, on a species now known to have very little harvestable surplus.  WDFW allowed hunters to shoot the herds down too far, some likely will never recover.  We'll be lucky to see an increase above 50 permits/year, statewide, in our lifetimes.

[blessed]

No Doublelung, try again...

[actionshooter]

I spoke to a state biologist last year about the goat numbers and he told me a huge part of the decline was DNRs fire control policy. He said they need to let the wildfires go, that helps create better habitat. Basically he said to much underbrush = less goats.     I don't know, but this guy has 30 years experience.

 Then we had a really good conversation about St. Helens elk 

[Skyvalhunter]

  I know there was a study by the WDFW where some mineral defency was killing off the goats. Supposedly the decline in the number of goats could have been reduced by some supplementation. But that was one theory.

[Hunting Cowboy]

Any one know why we only get one goat tag in a lifetime? I remember when we could put in for them every other year!

Blessed, Who are the guys in the photo. Thought one looked familiar.

[bobcat]

I spoke to a state biologist last year about the goat numbers and he told me a huge part of the decline was DNRs fire control policy. He said they need to let the wildfires go, that helps create better habitat. Basically he said to much underbrush = less goats.     I don't know, but this guy has 30 years experience.

 Then we had a really good conversation about St. Helens elk 

If the part about the fires were true, it wouldn't so much be the DNR's policy but the Forest Service. I'd guess 99.9% of mountain goats are on National Forest lands, not the DNR's.

But I agree about letting fires burn. It would surely create a lot better deer/elk habitat as well. But the problem is all the homes now out in those "fringe" areas, where if they let certain areas burn a lot of homes could end up being wiped out. That wouldn't be a popular thing with the general public. Although eventually nature will do the job anyway no matter how much man tries to prevent it.

[actionshooter]

I know it didn't help when the feds all but wiped out the goats in the Olympics, that took away 25 archery tags  

[Skyvalhunter]

Read this and you make a speculation!!
http://wdfw.wa.gov/science/articles/mtn_goats/index.html

[actionshooter]

I spoke to a state biologist last year about the goat numbers and he told me a huge part of the decline was DNRs fire control policy. He said they need to let the wildfires go, that helps create better habitat. Basically he said to much underbrush = less goats.     I don't know, but this guy has 30 years experience.

 Then we had a really good conversation about St. Helens elk 

If the part about the fires were true, it wouldn't so much be the DNR's policy but the Forest Service. I'd guess 99.9% of mountain goats are on National Forest lands, not the DNR's.

You are probably right about the forest service,  I used DNR as a generalization.

[WAcoueshunter]

Friends who have hiked the alpine lakes in late spring/early summer report fighting off the goats with a trekking pole (literally) when they take a piss.  Apparently the goats come running to lap it up.  No joke.  If that doesn't speak to some sort of mineral deficiency, I don't know what does.

I'd be surprised if the policy on fighting fires has had a big, recent impact.  Certainly could be a contributing factor, but they've been fighting fires for a long time.  That being said, happy to see them cranking up the controlled burns.  Saw it in several areas (WA and ID) this year.   Can't hurt to get back to a more natural state.

I read through the article from WDFW...alarming how little they know about goats.  They're knowledge on fat levels is based on knowing that indians have used the tallow?  Unfortunately goats are an expensive and difficult species to study, and I'm guessing they have several other species that have always been higher on the list.  I recall from a prior post that norsepeak was helping them out...sounds like they're making more of an effort to figure out what's wrong.

All in all, I guess it's a sign of the times.  Some species thrive with population growth / human interference (e.g. whities, turkeys), many others don't.

[actionshooter]

Mountain goats inhabit some of the most inaccessible terrain of Washington's Cascade Range. Because of their remote habitat, there is little scientific data on the life history of mountain goats. Biologists from several state, federal and tribal agencies are working together on a mountain goat research project. Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife's (WDFW) lead representative on the mountain goat research team, research biologist Cliff Rice, worked with other scientists to briefly capture animals, take biological samples and attach high-tech tracking collars on individual goats. A follow-up monitoring program is providing baseline habitat-use information that biologists will incorporate into a mountain goat recovery plan.




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Washington's mountain goats inhabit a vertical world of windswept cliffs and rocky crags, living in portions of the Cascade Mountains that are difficult for most humans to access. The goats' remote habitat may be one of the reasons why so little is known about their life history.

Click here to see an aerial 3-D image of one radio-collared goat's movements on Smith Ridge, south of the town of Packwood in eastern Lewis County. Each color represents a month's worth of movements by the goat. The data helps wildlife managers better understand seasonal habitat usages by mountain goats.



 

Biologists with the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) know one thing for certain: In some parts of the Cascades, mountain goat numbers have declined in recent decades.

"The bottom line is we just don't have a lot of research on goat biology in Washington," said WDFW wildlife biologist Cliff Rice, the study's leader. "We are basing a lot of our current knowledge on only a few observations and studies."

Rice and other biologists from WDFW, the U.S. Forest Service, National Park Service and the Sauk-Suiattle and Stillaguamish tribes are studying the mountain goat's health and seasonal habitat use. Last summer, the team examined and placed special transmitter collars on mountain goats throughout the Cascades, from the Mount Baker area near the U.S. Canadian border south to the Goats Rocks Wilderness area in Lewis County.

Using a gun that fired darts containing a safe, tranquilizing drug, biologists were able to briefly immobilize and capture 31 goats. Each animal was fitted with a global positioning system (GPS)-transmitting collar and given a thorough health exam.

 
The lack of historical mountain goat research is due likely to the rugged, remote habitat that the animals inhabit. 


Biologists later fly over the capture sites to collect information transmitted from the collars. The flight data offers biologists baseline information on the animal's movement and habitat use.

"The weather can alter our plans, but we hope to fly once a week over areas where we tagged goats," Rice said. "Each collar transmits two different signals - one that serves as a beacon, so we can locate the animal, and one that we can then use to download GPS locations that show where the animal has been since the data was last downloaded."

 
WDFW biologist Cliff Rice measures the length of a sedated mountain goat's horns. This sub-adult female has already been fitted with a radio-transmitting collar. The hood over her eyes is in place to keep the animal calm and to protect her eyes during handling. 

Each collar records the longitude and latitude of the animal every three hours. Biologists can pinpoint exactly where a mountain goat has been by plotting the GPS coordinates on a map.

"This data will help us create a formal habitat-usage map to identify all areas within the Cascades that are potential mountain goat habitat," Rice said. "Although we have a rough idea where mountain goats are during the summer, this data will give us much more detail about mountain goat movements during that time.

"On the other hand, for many of our mountain goats, we have virtually no idea where they are in the winter," he said. "There are few roads open to possible wintertime goat habitat areas, so access is difficult, at best."

Tracking the goats' movements and habitat requirements during the winter should add a new dimension to biologists' understanding of the animals' needs and how wildlife managers can ensure healthy populations.

The summertime goat-capturing effort gave biologists a rare opportunity to check on the health of individual animals. Rice said what the field checks didn't show about the goats' condition was surprising.

"We didn't encounter any emaciated animals, but we didn't encounter any fat ones, either," he said. "We were a little surprised during our September captures that we didn't find a single animal that was really piling on the fat like many animals tend to do just before winter.

"This year's dry summer could have hampered the goats' ability to put on fat before winter. It's also possible that mountain goats put on fat somewhere other than where we were looking. We know Indian tribes that hunted mountain goats used to render tallow from goat fat to provide lighting, so there must be fat sometime, somewhere on the animals.

 
A mountain goat ambles off after being fitted with a radio-transmitting collar. Data from the collar will give biologists a better understanding of the goats' habitat needs and uses. 

"That's what makes this research project so important: Finding answers to some of these very basic life history questions that we have," he said.

There are a number of possible causes for the decline in goat numbers, including past overharvesting and illegal hunting, past timber harvest practices, predation, changes in habitat, or possibly a critical mineral deficiency that has been exacerbated by acid rain.

"Hunting is now only allowed on a permit basis, and there is no legal hunting at all in the areas where we have low goat populations," Rice said. "Past timber harvests of old-growth trees near cliffs and rocky outcroppings may have meant a loss of wintertime browse for the animals."

Hikers and mountain climbers can come into contact with mountain goats when the animals are on their summertime ranges, and Rice said that human presence could force the animals to move to areas with lower-quality food sources.

 
Biologists track collared goats (in circle) from an airplane fitted with a radio receiver (foreground). 

Another possible reason for the decline in mountain goats could be a lack of an important trace mineral, selenium, in the plants goats eat.

Rice said biologists studying sheep populations in Montana and Colorado are working on a theory that acid rain -- caused by emissions from burning fossil fuels -- such as vehicle exhaust - changes plants' ability to absorb selenium from the soil. Washington's geologic makeup is already naturally deficient in selenium, so any dampening of a plant's ability to absorb the mineral could exacerbate the problem.

"That theory has not been proven, but there is circumstantial evidence that warrants a closer look," Rice said. "We will be considering all possible factors in trying to understand the decline in mountain goats that we've seen in some areas."

Another aspect of the mountain goat study is an effort to improve population survey methods for the animals, which are mainly done through helicopter flights.

"Survey results can vary considerably, which makes them difficult to interpret with any certainty," Rice said. "The data we collect from the collared goats will be used to refine our survey procedures to make them more effective, accurate and consistent."


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The lack of selenium is interesting, its a mineral that all goats need and there really isn't any naturally in the PNW. I have to give my packgoats a selenium booster every 6 months

[blessed]

I know it didn't help when the feds all but wiped out the goats in the Olympics, that took away 25 archery tags  

BINGOActionshooter hit it on the nose!
The Olympics were the life line for the State. When the Goats were down in numbers in a unit we trapped out goats from the Olympics and took them to the area . In the nineties the flower sniffers decided that the goats were not native to the area and forced the destruction (bu threatening with law suit) of all the goats in the park and a perimeter of a mile outside the park, ending the lifeline for our goats. How ...you tell me, can the be so sure a few of these goats didn't move in from Canada, or over from the Cascades? There was a Mt. Goat above the town of Lyle in the Columbia Gorge that came from somewhere? and lived there for years. How do they know that the goats they ran off the cliffs and shot from the choppers weren't native?  Isn't it a federal offense to destroy a natural resource?  
The men in the picture are L to R : humm Let me think...oh I'm the middle one.....

[blessed]

Thanks for the update on the goat program!  :hello:Back in the 80s we transported mineral blocks up to the goat areas for the goats. Art Ryles from up north was ahead of that program.  We even bought the blocks  so there was no extra cost to the dept. It was very rewording to be a part of it, and sad to see the goats treated so bad. 

[270Shooter]

I have always wondered why there aren't any goat tags for the ALW i hear they are in there so why no tags???

And talked to a guy who is in his 60's that said he had a goat tag for the GPW. Why no tags in that area any more???

[blessed]

I know you're used to TEXING every one but you need to spell things out for us old farts!  :chuckle:Sorry...

[bobcat]

I can help you out...

ALW = Alpine Lakes Wilderness

GPW = Glacier Peak Wilderness

[blessed]

Thanks Bobcat! I don't know why not but I know how to change it.
 Well they need you to go count the billy's, Nannies and kids so they know how many there are . Then write up a boundary line for a new goat unit and present it all to the powers that be. With the budget cuts taking place more volunteer help will really be needed. Be an advocate for your favorite things. 
 Start with a 2 or three year plan and go after it!
A good way to count goats in and area is place a selenium block some where in the open where you can watch them come to it from the distance to count. 
You might need the concent of the WDFW to do that in a wilderness.
What a great School project for science class? 

[Ray]

I have always wondered why there aren't any goat tags for the ALW i hear they are in there so why no tags???

I think it has to do with the size of the local populations. I have seen plenty of goats in the Alpine Lake Wilderness but the groups are usually pretty small in number and scattered. I don't know of any areas in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness which have great populations of goats like some of the other areas where tags are being offered. Certainly I have not seen every goat herd in the Alpine Lakes but from what I have seen I have to honestly say that I am glad they are preserving these populations for now and until their numbers increase. Some of the areas which I have seen them in this region are pretty popular hiking spots and I am glad we don't have hunters shooting the goats in front of 15 hikers.

[blessed]

I have always wondered why there aren't any goat tags for the ALW i hear they are in there so why no tags???

I think it has to do with the size of the local populations. I have seen plenty of goats in the Alpine Lake Wilderness but the groups are usually pretty small in number and scattered. I don't know of any areas in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness which have great populations of goats like some of the other areas where tags are being offered. Certainly I have not seen every goat herd in the Alpine Lakes but from what I have seen I have to honestly say that I am glad they are preserving these populations for now and until their numbers increase. Some of the areas which I have seen them in this region are pretty popular hiking spots and I am glad we don't have hunters shooting the goats in front of 15 hikers.

Yeah that!  I haven't been there that I remember so I couldn't say.

[bankwalker]

i see them all the time on easton ridge.

[WDFW-SUX]

"Mountain goat populations have declined dramatically in some portions of the North Cascades. Research findings suggest historical hunting levels may have been too high and unsustainable for goats."

The state has mismanaged the goats. Far too many tags for a long period of time caused the population to crash.  It will be 50 years or longer if they ever come back.

Colorado has weekday only goat hunts in areas that have large numbers of hikers to lessen the conflicts between user groups.  WDFW could easily do this to open additional areas to hunters but they have little interest expanding the goat hunts after the debacle of the 80's where 218+ tags per year were issued. Now we get 18.


I have been waiting for one colony of goats in Alaska to recover from overhunting and this is the first season in three plus decades that a hunt will be held.  Goats dont turn around quick if ever.

Killing young goats is a really bad idea IMO.

[blessed]

I know it didn't help when the feds all but wiped out the goats in the Olympics, that took away 25 archery tags  

BINGOActionshooter hit it on the nose!
The Olympics were the life line for the State. When the Goats were down in numbers in a unit we trapped out goats from the Olympics and took them to the area . In the nineties the flower sniffers decided that the goats were not native to the area and forced the destruction (bu threatening with law suit) of all the goats in the park and a perimeter of a mile outside the park, ending the lifeline for our goats. How ...you tell me, can the be so sure a few of these goats didn't move in from Canada, or over from the Cascades? There was a Mt. Goat above the town of Lyle in the Columbia Gorge that came from somewhere? and lived there for years. How do they know that the goats they ran off the cliffs and shot from the choppers weren't native?  Isn't it a federal offense to destroy a natural resource?  
The men in the picture are L to R : humm Let me think...oh I'm the middle one.....
I'm telling you, we had a ton of goats till the feds killed 99 percent of the Olympic heard.. ...

[Ray]

Colorado has weekday only goat hunts in areas that have large numbers of hikers to lessen the conflicts between user groups.  WDFW could easily do this to open additional areas to hunters

Great concept. Assuming the goat herd is actually substantial enough to even consider a hunt. A few places where the goats live are just too infested with human traffic for my taste.

i see them all the time on easton ridge.

Just because they exist doesn't mean the herd is able to sustain hunting pressures. I think that they have enough problems recovering and dealing with predators when they are in lesser numbers.

[norsepeak]

another aspect is that there surveys are extremely inaccurate.  Around my house, we have goats dying of old age!  The local goat biologist only flys the area once every other year, and doesn't even fly all of it.  I told him about some populations of goats in the area and he didn't even know about them.  He said he only gets out in the field about 5-8 days a year to look for goats!  I looked at his current data from this falls flight and was very surprised.  He flew the area, and estimated the total population at 125 animals.  I informed him that from one mtn. top within the area during early archery I saw 96 goats.  My estimate is around 300 animals in the whole area, but he disagreed.  So I asked him if thought that I really saw 90% of the total population of a 250 square mile area from one hill?  He didn't have an answer, but he said that sometimes goats are misidentified, implying that I don't know what a goat looks like....he didn't know what to say after I told him that I too have a wildlife biology degree and spend around 200+ days a year out in "goat country"

The point is that if they had accurate info, they would see that the population is actually healthier than they think in some areas of the state.

[blessed]

Very good Norsepak. If we want to have wildlife we need to be pro-active. Keep records!

[Ray]

The point is that if they had accurate info, they would see that the population is actually healthier than they think in some areas of the state.

I would not disagree with that point. I'll still stand by the remarks I have made which were scoped into the Alpine Lakes Wilderness but could apply in other places... There are several areas I know of which only have from a handful of goats to less than two dozen. Not really huntable from my perspective. I am glad too.

[Cougeyes]

My own personal view on this, as had already been stated by someone else was the overharvest in previous decades.  While augmentation from the Olympics to other areas in the state helped recover populations that were declining, in all essense why were they declining in the first place?  I'm pointing the finger at overharvest.  I know my grandfater would draw a tag almost everytime he put in.  I've heard from other people they too would draw tags almost anytime and would always kill goats.  I am not up to par on goat biology but it seems to me that over the years through road building, timber harvest and overall habitat loss.... corridors are being decreased for goats to move from one population to the next, thus creating sets of metapopulations throughout the state that if not managed properly could face serious loss. I think a conservative approach to permits right now is the only way to go. 

I agree that the surveys and sightability while surveying may be flawed or not producing an accurate count or a precise measure from each survey, however i think they count enough goats to get a decent count of the total population.  Regardless of what they're missing (say 100-150 goats ) i dont think its a reason to issue 10+ more tags for each unit, maybe 2-4 more. 

[SHANE(WA)]

I remember the olympic crap, cant beleive that was able to happen amazing
well this isnt the only animal they dont know much about, moose, they deffinately could issue some more tags in some units, huckleberry and threeforks have huge moose populations, I saw 6 bulls in a morning hike up one finger in huckleberry, they issue 6 tags lol so much terrain

[norsepeak]

cougeyes,

I agree they shouldn't give more permits for all units together...each unit, or similar units should be managed independently.  In the areas that I frequent, the goats are doing very well.  I'm seeing goats in areas that I've never seen them before because the populations are growing too high in the "typical" goat areas.  This last year, the amount of kidds was amazing, almost every nanny I saw had twins.  I'd like to see more time and energy put into manageing individual populations or units.  I have volunteered to help out the local WDFW office with thier surveys and whatever else, but the local biologist doesn't believe me when I tell him what I see....he always says "I disagree" when I tell what the populations that personally see are....

[Cougeyes]

Well start documenting it each year by taking lots of photos, seems like you may be the only source of "surveying" now that the state's budget is crap.  Well thats good that the goats are expanding into areas they previously never were found.  But like you may have eluded to....these areas may not get surveyed thus the population size may be underestimated. 

[MountainWalk]

I am ok with the once in a lifetime tag.