Poachers more problematic than wolves?

[KFhunter]

After 18 years of wolves in ID, MT, and Wyoming does anyone think WA has a different wolf? Does anyone think WA is running their agency different then Idaho? Does anyone remember how long it took for IDFG to finally admit that yes it was wolves that were decimating the herds? And Finally how long do you think it will take WDFW to admit the game herds are decimated and in a predator pit?

The same WDFW that protects predators, above all else. How long? Ten years?

Probably until WA voters do the same thing as Idaho voters 

couldn't resist

[KFhunter]

Maybe the wardens are good guys at their job, I do hope they are. But I still think they made a mistake/miscalculation or simply love wolves, whatever the case may be with their comment, the math simply doesn't add up with their comparison. Just sayin......

Well, I stopped at the CDA office the other day on my way through to talk to them about elk hunting.  I found out that a couple of the actually TEACH wolf trapping, so I guess your lumping them as wolf lovers is likely not very correct.

And, whether you agree with their math or not really has no bearing whatsoever as to their thoughts on wolves.  YOU were the one who got it in your mind that they were trying to deflect for some reason.  Nothing whatsoever in the article supports that, other than you lacking objectivity in the matter.

The COs that I talked to were very professional, and very knowledgeable.  Hardly the clown show that some would like to portray them as.

I'll give those guy's the benefit of the doubt -the CO's featured in this article- and lay the blame for deflection (unintended or otherwise) at the Spokesmen Review's feet.

To me it's an obvious deflection, you could write a stand alone story about poaching without dragging wolves into the mix, but then again who would read it? Toss a wolf in the mix and all the sudden it's being read;  so maybe it's not a deflection but rather a sad attempt at getting some readership.

pick your poison

[idaho guy]

sucked in on another wolf thread! dang-Oh well it IS another attempt to take the focus off the wolves. Why else would the title be poachers more problematic than wolves. It is so obviouse it hurts. Idaho hunter please just admit that the wolves are a major problem for our elk and deer herds. You have Idaho hunter as your title but if you cant admit what the wolves have done to our game herds I am starting to think we are hunting in different states! I dont want this to be an attack against you at all just can not understand at all where you are coming from on the wolves. Bearpaw is spot on on about everything he has posted about the wolf and wildlife management.  Butch Otter has my vote forever after he took a stance on agressive wolf management. I think the Idaho fish and game officers are doing a great job and just were not allowed to manage wolves soon enough to prevent the problems. I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just didnt have the ability to do much about it till the last few years. I do think there are at least a few bunny huggers in the idfg that have made responsible management harder and take longer than it should have.  Lot of great people on this forum and I hope you can get your state to actually manage predators. People, the press and anyone else trying to downplay the very real and negative impacts of wolves is getting really old. The facts are the facts and if you spend anytime in the woods of Idaho and Montana you cant deny it.       

[WAcoyotehunter]

I hope you aren't just voting for him because of his stance on wolves....     

Whoa....

[idaho guy]

That reason and the fact he has an R behind his name! What else do I need to know? Not really, I had already voted for him based on a lot of issues.Ok, he had my vote already, the wolf thing just confirmed my support.     

[WAcoyotehunter]

  just making sure

[idahohuntr]

Idaho hunter please just admit that the wolves are a major problem for our elk and deer herds. You have Idaho hunter as your title but if you cant admit what the wolves have done to our game herds I am starting to think we are hunting in different states! I dont want this to be an attack against you at all just can not understand at all where you are coming from on the wolves.

Ugh...this one just won't die.  I've never said there are not areas that have not been impacted by wolves.  Don't read what others say I've said...really read my own posts as the basis for what I think, not somebody's distorted interpretation.  Wolves in particular areas have impacted ungulate herds and in some very specific areas they are very much the limiting factor to population growth.  However, you are dead wrong if you think that all herds have just been decimated in Idaho and you are equally wrong if you think all game numbers and areas that truly have experienced marked declines are because of wolves.  I don't know how long you have lived and hunted in Idaho but elk hunting is still pretty good in many areas...deer hunting took a hit after back to back hard winters in 2008 and 2009 but I am seeing signs of improvement there as well.  Hunter success rates in most units of N. Idaho are as good or better than they were 10-15 years ago.  Part of my dismay in some of the comments above stems from completely unintelligent discussion about what and how IDFG (or other state agencies) are managing wolves.  They have been hamstrung by federal laws and associated lawsuits from enviro whacko groups and so when I see sportsmen attack our best ally (stage game agencies) without any real basis it irritates me.  You think IDFG doesn't know how to manage wolves? Or they don't know whats happening in the Lolo or Unit 1 moose or Unit 7 elk or the Middle Fork Zone??? Give me a break...these wildlife professionals have done a heck of a job and when I see groups or people attack them in a misleading way it irritates the hell out of me...like suggesting Otter was elected to clean house at IDFG or something    IDFG gets the crap beat out of 'em for sending in a trapper to the Middle Fork at public meetings, only to have hunters say they don't know what they are doing???  Guess what...its almost entirely the same staff since wolves started really making headlines in the early 2000's.  All along IDFG has been saying they can manage wolves just like any other predator or game animal they've been managing for 75 years...enviro whackos claimed they would decimate all the wolves...wolf whackos claimed IDFG would ruin all the deer and elk hunting.  Guess who was right?  IDFG.  End of discussion...if you are in one of the fringe groups pack up your bags and go home.

I think people say the word wolf and then all these idiots that moved to Idaho from California think that before wolves every hunter shot a 6 pt bull every year      If you hunt public ground in any western state with OTC tags and you think you should kill a bull every year...you need a reality check.

Bearpaw is spot on on about everything he has posted about the wolf and wildlife management.     

That is a good one  Oh wait...you were being serious 
Please, go back and read how ol Bearpaw described Otter/IDFG/Wolves and tell me he is "spot on"  The guy made up all this bravado bs that never happened, completely mis-characterized how Otter and IDFG worked together...but yea, other than missing all the pertinent dates, facts, details, and substantive evidence his description was "spot on"  At least as spot on as all of his other wolf thread posts.   

[bearpaw]

Idaho hunter please just admit that the wolves are a major problem for our elk and deer herds. You have Idaho hunter as your title but if you cant admit what the wolves have done to our game herds I am starting to think we are hunting in different states! I dont want this to be an attack against you at all just can not understand at all where you are coming from on the wolves.

Ugh...this one just won't die.  I've never said there are not areas that have not been impacted by wolves.  Don't read what others say I've said...really read my own posts as the basis for what I think, not somebody's distorted interpretation.  Wolves in particular areas have impacted ungulate herds and in some very specific areas they are very much the limiting factor to population growth.  However, you are dead wrong if you think that all herds have just been decimated in Idaho and you are equally wrong if you think all game numbers and areas that truly have experienced marked declines are because of wolves.  I don't know how long you have lived and hunted in Idaho but elk hunting is still pretty good in many areas...deer hunting took a hit after back to back hard winters in 2008 and 2009 but I am seeing signs of improvement there as well.  Hunter success rates in most units of N. Idaho are as good or better than they were 10-15 years ago.  Part of my dismay in some of the comments above stems from completely unintelligent discussion about what and how IDFG (or other state agencies) are managing wolves.  They have been hamstrung by federal laws and associated lawsuits from enviro whacko groups and so when I see sportsmen attack our best ally (stage game agencies) without any real basis it irritates me.  You think IDFG doesn't know how to manage wolves? Or they don't know whats happening in the Lolo or Unit 1 moose or Unit 7 elk or the Middle Fork Zone??? Give me a break...these wildlife professionals have done a heck of a job and when I see groups or people attack them in a misleading way it irritates the hell out of me...like suggesting Otter was elected to clean house at IDFG or something    IDFG gets the crap beat out of 'em for sending in a trapper to the Middle Fork at public meetings, only to have hunters say they don't know what they are doing???  Guess what...its almost entirely the same staff since wolves started really making headlines in the early 2000's.  All along IDFG has been saying they can manage wolves just like any other predator or game animal they've been managing for 75 years...enviro whackos claimed they would decimate all the wolves...wolf whackos claimed IDFG would ruin all the deer and elk hunting.  Guess who was right?  IDFG.  End of discussion...if you are in one of the fringe groups pack up your bags and go home.

I think people say the word wolf and then all these idiots that moved to Idaho from California think that before wolves every hunter shot a 6 pt bull every year      If you hunt public ground in any western state with OTC tags and you think you should kill a bull every year...you need a reality check.

Bearpaw is spot on on about everything he has posted about the wolf and wildlife management.     

That is a good one  Oh wait...you were being serious 
Please, go back and read how ol Bearpaw described Otter/IDFG/Wolves and tell me he is "spot on"  The guy made up all this bravado bs that never happened, completely mis-characterized how Otter and IDFG worked together...but yea, other than missing all the pertinent dates, facts, details, and substantive evidence his description was "spot on"  At least as spot on as all of his other wolf thread posts. 

Make any claims you want Idahohntr, I am not getting drawn into your nonsense game, people can see the history and facts that I have presented speak for themself. 

[idaho guy]

Idaho hunter I have lived in north Idaho for 21 years and I moved her from Montana not California. I have lived in this area (nortwest) montana,idaho my whole life. You live in Washington but appear to be an expert on Idaho hunting. Read my post I said I think the idaho fish and game does a great job and totally agree that they were hamstrung by the feds. I also said that I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just were not allowed to implement effective wolf management soon enough. So before you go off please read my post also. I did kill my elk every year in the 90s early 2000 so ya Idaho hunting was that good. There are still good elk numbers in areas of the panhandle and we still kill elk but if you spend time in the woods you cant deny the very real effect wolves have had. In Idaho if you take advantage of the liberal seasons we are in the woods 11 months out of the year chasing some critter. In the fall I am hunting with everyone else deer, elk etc, winter we are chasing lions, spring through summer bears turkeys etc.  and still trying to do my part with the wolves the rest of the time. I am out there all the time and dont need a biologist to tell me there are way more wolves than people think and they are wreaking havoc. I have watched as the wolves move in and then see another honey hole ruined or changed. If you still have some honey holes that have not been impacted its because the wolves are not there in large numbers yet. My qestion to you was what is your point? If anybody says hey wolves are a major problem(in addition to habititat and everything else) they are a conspiracy theorist? A wolf hating wacko nut job? I wish you were right and the wolf issue is not the major limiting factor right now. But you are not and I dont see why you are making this argument. I think we have a chance to get predators under control here BECAUSE OF OUR FISH & GAME DEPT. But trying to dismiss wolves as no big deal is not helping the problem -especially in Wa where your game dept seems to love predators already(except for the human kind)           

[bearpaw]

Idaho hunter I have lived in north Idaho for 21 years and I moved her from Montana not California. I have lived in this area (nortwest) montana,idaho my whole life. You live in Washington but appear to be an expert on Idaho hunting. Read my post I said I think the idaho fish and game does a great job and totally agree that they were hamstrung by the feds. I also said that I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just were not allowed to implement effective wolf management soon enough. So before you go off please read my post also. I did kill my elk every year in the 90s early 2000 so ya Idaho hunting was that good. There are still good elk numbers in areas of the panhandle and we still kill elk but if you spend time in the woods you cant deny the very real effect wolves have had. In Idaho if you take advantage of the liberal seasons we are in the woods 11 months out of the year chasing some critter. In the fall I am hunting with everyone else deer, elk etc, winter we are chasing lions, spring through summer bears turkeys etc.  and still trying to do my part with the wolves the rest of the time. I am out there all the time and dont need a biologist to tell me there are way more wolves than people think and they are wreaking havoc. I have watched as the wolves move in and then see another honey hole ruined or changed. If you still have some honey holes that have not been impacted its because the wolves are not there in large numbers yet. My qestion to you was what is your point? If anybody says hey wolves are a major problem(in addition to habititat and everything else) they are a conspiracy theorist? A wolf hating wacko nut job? I wish you were right and the wolf issue is not the major limiting factor right now. But you are not and I dont see why you are making this argument. I think we have a chance to get predators under control here BECAUSE OF OUR FISH & GAME DEPT. But trying to dismiss wolves as no big deal is not helping the problem -especially in Wa where your game dept seems to love predators already(except for the human kind)         

Very well detailed and accurate reply in every way. What you said is what most people who spend much time in the Idaho mountains will say. I just talked to an Idaho resident last night who is down near Boise, he was telling me that he saw more deer and elk along the Payette winter range this year than he has seen in several years. The reduction in wolf numbers the last few years seems to be already starting to pay off in some areas. Thanks for your insight. 

[wolfbait]

Idaho hunter I have lived in north Idaho for 21 years and I moved her from Montana not California. I have lived in this area (nortwest) montana,idaho my whole life. You live in Washington but appear to be an expert on Idaho hunting. Read my post I said I think the idaho fish and game does a great job and totally agree that they were hamstrung by the feds. I also said that I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just were not allowed to implement effective wolf management soon enough. So before you go off please read my post also. I did kill my elk every year in the 90s early 2000 so ya Idaho hunting was that good. There are still good elk numbers in areas of the panhandle and we still kill elk but if you spend time in the woods you cant deny the very real effect wolves have had. In Idaho if you take advantage of the liberal seasons we are in the woods 11 months out of the year chasing some critter. In the fall I am hunting with everyone else deer, elk etc, winter we are chasing lions, spring through summer bears turkeys etc.  and still trying to do my part with the wolves the rest of the time. I am out there all the time and dont need a biologist to tell me there are way more wolves than people think and they are wreaking havoc. I have watched as the wolves move in and then see another honey hole ruined or changed. If you still have some honey holes that have not been impacted its because the wolves are not there in large numbers yet. My qestion to you was what is your point? If anybody says hey wolves are a major problem(in addition to habititat and everything else) they are a conspiracy theorist? A wolf hating wacko nut job? I wish you were right and the wolf issue is not the major limiting factor right now. But you are not and I dont see why you are making this argument. I think we have a chance to get predators under control here BECAUSE OF OUR FISH & GAME DEPT. But trying to dismiss wolves as no big deal is not helping the problem -especially in Wa where your game dept seems to love predators already(except for the human kind)         

Very well detailed and accurate reply in every way. What you said is what most people who spend much time in the Idaho mountains will say. I just talked to an Idaho resident last night who is down near Boise, he was telling me that he saw more deer and elk along the Payette winter range this year than he has seen in several years. The reduction in wolf numbers the last few years seems to be already starting to pay off in some areas. Thanks for your insight. 

X2 

[idahohuntr]

Idaho hunter I have lived in north Idaho for 21 years and I moved her from Montana not California. I have lived in this area (nortwest) montana,idaho my whole life. You live in Washington but appear to be an expert on Idaho hunting. Read my post I said I think the idaho fish and game does a great job and totally agree that they were hamstrung by the feds. I also said that I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just were not allowed to implement effective wolf management soon enough. So before you go off please read my post also. I did kill my elk every year in the 90s early 2000 so ya Idaho hunting was that good. There are still good elk numbers in areas of the panhandle and we still kill elk but if you spend time in the woods you cant deny the very real effect wolves have had. In Idaho if you take advantage of the liberal seasons we are in the woods 11 months out of the year chasing some critter. In the fall I am hunting with everyone else deer, elk etc, winter we are chasing lions, spring through summer bears turkeys etc.  and still trying to do my part with the wolves the rest of the time. I am out there all the time and dont need a biologist to tell me there are way more wolves than people think and they are wreaking havoc. I have watched as the wolves move in and then see another honey hole ruined or changed. If you still have some honey holes that have not been impacted its because the wolves are not there in large numbers yet. My qestion to you was what is your point? If anybody says hey wolves are a major problem(in addition to habititat and everything else) they are a conspiracy theorist? A wolf hating wacko nut job? I wish you were right and the wolf issue is not the major limiting factor right now. But you are not and I dont see why you are making this argument. I think we have a chance to get predators under control here BECAUSE OF OUR FISH & GAME DEPT. But trying to dismiss wolves as no big deal is not helping the problem -especially in Wa where your game dept seems to love predators already(except for the human kind)         

I was speaking generally about new-comers, not you specifically.  I don't care where you are from.  My family has hunted N-C Idaho since the early 1900's (probably longer, but that is all I can confirm with photos/journals).  I have only lived in Washington a short time and continue to hunt and recreate in Idaho every year...surely you are not suggesting my washington residence limits my knowledge of hunting in Idaho??   

Go re-read my post, I answer all of your questions.  You continue to misinterpret what I said.  Nowhere have I ever suggested wolves don't ever cause problems...its the "wolves will end hunting as we know it" mindset that I get vocal about.  The data do not support these claims.  20 years of wolves in Idaho and still huge amounts of game to hunt.  Habitat, access, agriculture, maybe even poaching are a much bigger issue overall to ungulates in Idaho...wolves take the blame for poor habitat, bad winters, poaching and many other things is my biggest point.  If elk or deer decline in an area (a big if) it is not automatic that wolves are the culprit.  In some cases yes, but not in all cases. 

[idahohuntr]

Idaho hunter I have lived in north Idaho for 21 years and I moved her from Montana not California. I have lived in this area (nortwest) montana,idaho my whole life. You live in Washington but appear to be an expert on Idaho hunting. Read my post I said I think the idaho fish and game does a great job and totally agree that they were hamstrung by the feds. I also said that I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just were not allowed to implement effective wolf management soon enough. So before you go off please read my post also. I did kill my elk every year in the 90s early 2000 so ya Idaho hunting was that good. There are still good elk numbers in areas of the panhandle and we still kill elk but if you spend time in the woods you cant deny the very real effect wolves have had. In Idaho if you take advantage of the liberal seasons we are in the woods 11 months out of the year chasing some critter. In the fall I am hunting with everyone else deer, elk etc, winter we are chasing lions, spring through summer bears turkeys etc.  and still trying to do my part with the wolves the rest of the time. I am out there all the time and dont need a biologist to tell me there are way more wolves than people think and they are wreaking havoc. I have watched as the wolves move in and then see another honey hole ruined or changed. If you still have some honey holes that have not been impacted its because the wolves are not there in large numbers yet. My qestion to you was what is your point? If anybody says hey wolves are a major problem(in addition to habititat and everything else) they are a conspiracy theorist? A wolf hating wacko nut job? I wish you were right and the wolf issue is not the major limiting factor right now. But you are not and I dont see why you are making this argument. I think we have a chance to get predators under control here BECAUSE OF OUR FISH & GAME DEPT. But trying to dismiss wolves as no big deal is not helping the problem -especially in Wa where your game dept seems to love predators already(except for the human kind)         

Very well detailed and accurate reply in every way. What you said is what most people who spend much time in the Idaho mountains will say. I just talked to an Idaho resident last night who is down near Boise, he was telling me that he saw more deer and elk along the Payette winter range this year than he has seen in several years. The reduction in wolf numbers the last few years seems to be already starting to pay off in some areas. Thanks for your insight. 

X2 

I am glad to see wolfbait and bearpaw both now acknowledge that much of Idaho (20 YEARS AFTER WOLVES) is good deer and elk hunting.  Seems just a few short months ago both were claiming wolves had decimated most of Idaho and Washington was next.  Now they seem to be getting on the bandwagon of Idaho is ok now.  Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks 

[idaho guy]

Idaho hunter I have lived in north Idaho for 21 years and I moved her from Montana not California. I have lived in this area (nortwest) montana,idaho my whole life. You live in Washington but appear to be an expert on Idaho hunting. Read my post I said I think the idaho fish and game does a great job and totally agree that they were hamstrung by the feds. I also said that I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just were not allowed to implement effective wolf management soon enough. So before you go off please read my post also. I did kill my elk every year in the 90s early 2000 so ya Idaho hunting was that good. There are still good elk numbers in areas of the panhandle and we still kill elk but if you spend time in the woods you cant deny the very real effect wolves have had. In Idaho if you take advantage of the liberal seasons we are in the woods 11 months out of the year chasing some critter. In the fall I am hunting with everyone else deer, elk etc, winter we are chasing lions, spring through summer bears turkeys etc.  and still trying to do my part with the wolves the rest of the time. I am out there all the time and dont need a biologist to tell me there are way more wolves than people think and they are wreaking havoc. I have watched as the wolves move in and then see another honey hole ruined or changed. If you still have some honey holes that have not been impacted its because the wolves are not there in large numbers yet. My qestion to you was what is your point? If anybody says hey wolves are a major problem(in addition to habititat and everything else) they are a conspiracy theorist? A wolf hating wacko nut job? I wish you were right and the wolf issue is not the major limiting factor right now. But you are not and I dont see why you are making this argument. I think we have a chance to get predators under control here BECAUSE OF OUR FISH & GAME DEPT. But trying to dismiss wolves as no big deal is not helping the problem -especially in Wa where your game dept seems to love predators already(except for the human kind)         

Very well detailed and accurate reply in every way. What you said is what most people who spend much time in the Idaho mountains will say. I just talked to an Idaho resident last night who is down near Boise, he was telling me that he saw more deer and elk along the Payette winter range this year than he has seen in several years. The reduction in wolf numbers the last few years seems to be already starting to pay off in some areas. Thanks for your insight. 

X2 

I am glad to see wolfbait and bearpaw both now acknowledge that much of Idaho (20 YEARS AFTER WOLVES) is good deer and elk hunting.  Seems just a few short months ago both were claiming wolves had decimated most of Idaho and Washington was next.  Now they seem to be getting on the bandwagon of Idaho is ok now.  Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks 

***************
They were acknowleding that effective wolf management is working. Reducing wolves is helping in some areas was the point to what bearpaw said. Wolves are the main limiting factor in the size and health of our deer and elk herds.(Where they are present in large numbers) I agree with you that habitat is a strong second. Poachers suck but I dont see how one poacher could come close to what one wolf pack does in a year-I wont qoute stats or articles or biologist I see it everyday in the woods. Again I think Idaho will fix the problem and I am optimistic. Washington is another story       

[bearpaw]

Idaho hunter I have lived in north Idaho for 21 years and I moved her from Montana not California. I have lived in this area (nortwest) montana,idaho my whole life. You live in Washington but appear to be an expert on Idaho hunting. Read my post I said I think the idaho fish and game does a great job and totally agree that they were hamstrung by the feds. I also said that I took the wolf trapping class from them and they totally see the problem just were not allowed to implement effective wolf management soon enough. So before you go off please read my post also. I did kill my elk every year in the 90s early 2000 so ya Idaho hunting was that good. There are still good elk numbers in areas of the panhandle and we still kill elk but if you spend time in the woods you cant deny the very real effect wolves have had. In Idaho if you take advantage of the liberal seasons we are in the woods 11 months out of the year chasing some critter. In the fall I am hunting with everyone else deer, elk etc, winter we are chasing lions, spring through summer bears turkeys etc.  and still trying to do my part with the wolves the rest of the time. I am out there all the time and dont need a biologist to tell me there are way more wolves than people think and they are wreaking havoc. I have watched as the wolves move in and then see another honey hole ruined or changed. If you still have some honey holes that have not been impacted its because the wolves are not there in large numbers yet. My qestion to you was what is your point? If anybody says hey wolves are a major problem(in addition to habititat and everything else) they are a conspiracy theorist? A wolf hating wacko nut job? I wish you were right and the wolf issue is not the major limiting factor right now. But you are not and I dont see why you are making this argument. I think we have a chance to get predators under control here BECAUSE OF OUR FISH & GAME DEPT. But trying to dismiss wolves as no big deal is not helping the problem -especially in Wa where your game dept seems to love predators already(except for the human kind)         

Very well detailed and accurate reply in every way. What you said is what most people who spend much time in the Idaho mountains will say. I just talked to an Idaho resident last night who is down near Boise, he was telling me that he saw more deer and elk along the Payette winter range this year than he has seen in several years. The reduction in wolf numbers the last few years seems to be already starting to pay off in some areas. Thanks for your insight. 

X2 

I am glad to see wolfbait and bearpaw both now acknowledge that much of Idaho (20 YEARS AFTER WOLVES) is good deer and elk hunting.  Seems just a few short months ago both were claiming wolves had decimated most of Idaho and Washington was next.  Now they seem to be getting on the bandwagon of Idaho is ok now.  Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks 

***************
They were acknowleding that effective wolf management is working. Reducing wolves is helping in some areas was the point to what bearpaw said. Wolves are the main limiting factor in the size and health of our deer and elk herds.(Where they are present in large numbers) I agree with you that habitat is a strong second. Poachers suck but I dont see how one poacher could come close to what one wolf pack does in a year-I wont qoute stats or articles or biologist I see it everyday in the woods. Again I think Idaho will fix the problem and I am optimistic. Washington is another story       

Right on again Idaho guy. Don't mind Idahohntr, he only seems to be on this site to distort what you say or to argue.