Why most probably don't see wolves as much of a public safety problem

[JLS]

I always find it ironic and amusing that when folks speak to their real world experiences, and they don't coincide with and confirm the biases that people have, then it becomes "pushing an agenda".

Unfortunately, I don't find it amusing but rather sad and distasteful. Name calling and branding always weaken an argument.

I've simply grown to accept it, particularly on wolf threads.  It always becomes quite obvious when objectivity and the ability to read goes out the window, and is replaced by emotion and arguing what you think you are reading.

[bobcat]

Yes, WDFW, which manages the wildlife in one of the most liberal states in the U.S. does have a more liberal wolf plan than other states.  I also do not agree with the part of the plan that requires BPs in all three areas of the state before state de-listing...maybe wdfw did this because they think wolves are neat    I think a better guess is they knew they needed a plan that they could sell to wolf lovers...probably because if they didn't appease that group in some fashion the legislature or governors office would do it for them.

This reminds me of a WDFW meeting I attended in Olympia in which the wolf plan was one of the topics, and this was just before it was officially adopted. A gentleman there got up to speak and addressed the Commission, and pleaded with them to not approve the wolf plan as written. He said 15 breeding pairs weren't nearly enough and that the minimum number needed was double that. He asked them to increase it to 30 breeding pairs.

This is what the WDFW is up against.

[KFhunter]

I always find it ironic and amusing that when folks speak to their real world experiences, and they don't coincide with and confirm the biases that people have, then it becomes "pushing an agenda".

Unfortunately, I don't find it amusing but rather sad and distasteful. Name calling and branding always weaken an argument.

I've simply grown to accept it, particularly on wolf threads.  It always becomes quite obvious when objectivity and the ability to read goes out the window, and is replaced by emotion and arguing what you think you are reading.

I think I read that Idahohntr is in lockstep with REMF - and I can get behind this article.

http://missoulian.com/news/local/rocky-mountain-elk-foundation-offers-to-finance-more-aggressive-wolf/article_18f6cc20-7222-11e1-a853-001871e3ce6c.html

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation leaders want state wildlife officials to get more aggressive about wolf control, and they’ve offered at least $50,000 to make it happen.

“We are not utilizing anywhere near to the fullest of what the wolf management plan authorizes,” RMEF president David Allen said on Monday. “The go-slow, take-it-easy approach is not working.”

Allen said his group wants to see reductions in black bears, mountain lions and coyotes as well as wolves to help the state’s struggling ungulate populations. Wolves, lions and bears are blamed for falling populations of elk in several parts of Montana, while coyotes are a threat to eastern Montana deer and antelope populations that have also suffered major disease outbreaks.

“This is where this all starts to domino if you don’t keep predators managed,” Allen said. “And the next step is the grizzly bear. We’ve got bear issues with elk calves in the spring – both grizzly and black bear. We can’t have all these predators with little aggressive management and expect to have ample game herds and sell hunting tags and generate revenue that supports FWP nearly 100 percent.”

But I gotta say, it doesn't sound like the Idahohntr I been reading lately - did someone hack his account?

[idahohuntr]

I always find it ironic and amusing that when folks speak to their real world experiences, and they don't coincide with and confirm the biases that people have, then it becomes "pushing an agenda".

Unfortunately, I don't find it amusing but rather sad and distasteful. Name calling and branding always weaken an argument.

I've simply grown to accept it, particularly on wolf threads.  It always becomes quite obvious when objectivity and the ability to read goes out the window, and is replaced by emotion and arguing what you think you are reading.

I think I read that Idahohntr is in lockstep with REMF - and I can get behind this article.

http://missoulian.com/news/local/rocky-mountain-elk-foundation-offers-to-finance-more-aggressive-wolf/article_18f6cc20-7222-11e1-a853-001871e3ce6c.html

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation leaders want state wildlife officials to get more aggressive about wolf control, and they’ve offered at least $50,000 to make it happen.

“We are not utilizing anywhere near to the fullest of what the wolf management plan authorizes,” RMEF president David Allen said on Monday. “The go-slow, take-it-easy approach is not working.”

Allen said his group wants to see reductions in black bears, mountain lions and coyotes as well as wolves to help the state’s struggling ungulate populations. Wolves, lions and bears are blamed for falling populations of elk in several parts of Montana, while coyotes are a threat to eastern Montana deer and antelope populations that have also suffered major disease outbreaks.

“This is where this all starts to domino if you don’t keep predators managed,” Allen said. “And the next step is the grizzly bear. We’ve got bear issues with elk calves in the spring – both grizzly and black bear. We can’t have all these predators with little aggressive management and expect to have ample game herds and sell hunting tags and generate revenue that supports FWP nearly 100 percent.”

But I gotta say, it doesn't sound like the Idahohntr I been reading lately - did someone hack his account?

Yep, predators, like all other wildlife need managed.  Again, you seem to be falsely implying I don't support predator management.  RMEF is largely a habitat protection organization...their primary focus is conserving and enhancing habitat for elk and other wildlife.  I consistently make the point of how important habitat issues are to wildlife.  Randy Newberg is on the Board of Directors of RMEF...I'm a huge supporter of his views on wildlife management...he often rails against fringe groups like lobowatch, BGF, and SFW. 

Perhaps you should read this article posted on RMEF's website applauding WDFW's common-sense approach to utilizing a Montana pilot approach to wolf management: http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/PressRoom/PredatorManagementControl/BugleArticles/WashingtonWolves.aspx

[fair-chase]

The only agenda I push is something along the lines of advocating for policies favorable to the average, diy public land hunter.  Go check out Randy Newberg...I will push his "agenda" all day long.  Oh and for conservation groups...I'm pretty much lock-step with RMEF.  As for these other agendas you suggest that I'm pushing...those only exist in your mind.

Oh brother, you just stirred up a hornest nest now. Don't you know Randy Newberg is alligned with the most vial of all [anti]hunting groups....Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (gasp). Any man caught referencing BCHA on this forum shall be hung for sedition. Any man actually caught contributing to BCHA will be shot for desertion. 


Do not fret. There is redemption for even the most unholy purveyor of DIY public land hunters. All that is required to purge yourself of this unconscionable alliance is a small contribution to Don Peay, Lifetime membership to SFW, and a willingness to wear or display BGF or MacMillan River Adventures (your choice) brand merchandise. Furthermore, you must publicly denounce the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. After you have completed these steps you are free to discuss your opinion on all matters pertaining to wolves, as long as they conform to the ideas set forth by the agencies listed above.

***Disclaimer - You agree not to hold me personally responsible for any and all charges (past, present, and future) related to affiliation with aforementioned groups. Including; but not limited to; tax evasion, embezzlement, money laundering, and criminal co-conspiracy*** 

[JLS]

The only agenda I push is something along the lines of advocating for policies favorable to the average, diy public land hunter.  Go check out Randy Newberg...I will push his "agenda" all day long.  Oh and for conservation groups...I'm pretty much lock-step with RMEF.  As for these other agendas you suggest that I'm pushing...those only exist in your mind.

Oh brother, you just stirred up a hornest nest now. Don't you know Randy Newberg is alligned with the most vial of all [anti]hunting groups....Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (gasp). Any man caught referencing BCHA on this forum shall be hung for sedition. Any man actually caught contributing to BCHA will be shot for desertion. 


Do not fret. There is redemption for even the most unholy purveyor of DIY public land hunters. All that is required to purge yourself of this unconscionable alliance is a small contribution to Don Peay, Lifetime membership to SFW, and a willingness to wear or display BGF or MacMillan River Adventures (your choice) brand merchandise. Furthermore, you must publicly denounce the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. After you have completed these steps you are free to discuss your opinion on all matters pertaining to wolves, as long as they conform to the ideas set forth by the agencies listed above.

***Disclaimer - You agree not to hold me personally responsible for any and all charges (past, present, and future) related to affiliation with aforementioned groups. Including; but not limited to; tax evasion, embezzlement, money laundering, and criminal co-conspiracy*** 

Enough details, where can I get a list of the auction tags?

[Special T]

ESA is federal law.  Anti-hunter groups use ESA to push agendas.  Those two are not mutually exclusive.  Those are just facts.  I did not contradict myself. 

So what agenda am I pushing?  Are we back to these silly accusations that I'm an anti-hunter? Really? 

I stand by what I said about WDFW.  They are not the enemy, they are the biggest ally we have in this state when it comes to wolf management and future deer and elk hunting.  If you can't accept that I guess you can sit on the sidelines and complain about why other groups and organizations have more say about how wildlife is managed than you do.  Suit yourself.

That is simply NOT true. The actions of the WDFW demonstrate that. You must of missed my previous posts. Please review them because there is a small  list of things they COULD have done or tried that would make them an "Ally". They simply are not, and to say so is absurd. What are you basing that statement on?

[bobcat]

Maybe the WDFW is doing the best they can do while avoiding a lawsuit by the wolf huggers. 

I'm sure a lot of their decisions and methods of management (or non-management) have to do with nothing more than that.

One of their biggest problems is a severe lack of funding.

[idahohuntr]

ESA is federal law.  Anti-hunter groups use ESA to push agendas.  Those two are not mutually exclusive.  Those are just facts.  I did not contradict myself. 

So what agenda am I pushing?  Are we back to these silly accusations that I'm an anti-hunter? Really? 

I stand by what I said about WDFW.  They are not the enemy, they are the biggest ally we have in this state when it comes to wolf management and future deer and elk hunting.  If you can't accept that I guess you can sit on the sidelines and complain about why other groups and organizations have more say about how wildlife is managed than you do.  Suit yourself.

That is simply NOT true. The actions of the WDFW demonstrate that. You must of missed my previous posts. Please review them because there is a small  list of things they COULD have done or tried that would make them an "Ally". They simply are not, and to say so is absurd. What are you basing that statement on?

Who manages the wildlife in this state?  Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. 

I believe they very much have sportsmens interests at heart...but they also have to pursue those interests through a minefield of political pitfalls that folks like you and I probably don't really see very clearly...and yes, occassionally they stumble.  But in the end if sportsmen are not supportive of WDFW the greenies win.  As Bobcat pointed out, the greenies don't like the wolf plan either...they want 2x as many wolves 

[KFhunter]

Idahohntr

So why did you gloss over RMEF's CEO David Allens stance on wolves??

“Wolf reintroduction is the worst ecological disaster since the decimation of bison herds,” Allen said recently, as he claimed that wolves are “decimating” and “annihilating” elk herds. “To keep wolf populations controlled, states will have to hold hunts, shoot wolves from the air and gas their dens,” he said.

Seems like this is in opposition to everything you and JLS have said on HW.

[idahohuntr]

Idahohntr

So why did you gloss over RMEF's CEO David Allens stance on wolves??

“Wolf reintroduction is the worst ecological disaster since the decimation of bison herds,” Allen said recently, as he claimed that wolves are “decimating” and “annihilating” elk herds. “To keep wolf populations controlled, states will have to hold hunts, shoot wolves from the air and gas their dens,” he said.

Seems like this is in opposition to everything you and JLS have said on HW.

Do you have more context for this quote? When was it provided and where is it printed? Where is the rest of the story?

If what you have pasted is the entirety of the quote and context then I do not agree with him.  Wolves have not been the worst "ecological disaster" because state based management is working quite well.  If the quote came from 2008/2009 when there was still a lot of back and forth between feds vs. state managing wolves in ID/MT I understand completely why he would have said that.  If its real recent, then I disagree.

When he says wolves are annihilating and decimating elk herds is he talking specific herds (which I agree) or all elk herds in ID and MT (I would disagree)?

On his statements about the need for states to control wolf populations and hunt them...completely agree.  His statement about gassing their dens...not appropriate...if he did say that I will bet you PR staff had a long chat with him afterwards.

Again, I don't let perfect be the enemy of good.  RMEF has conserved and enhanced 6+ million acres of wildlife habitat.  They have increased focus on finding ways to increase access to hunting land for diy guys lately.  They support state based wolf management - meaning they support WDFW!, IDFG, MTFWP, WYGF...Habitat, Access, and supporting state wolf management...yep looks like I'm still lock step with RMEF views on what is important.

Oh, and as even further evidence of how aligned I am with that organization...a while back Allen wrote an open letter basically requesting that conservation organizations not fleece sportsmen and steal public resources.  It was basically a big shot at that fraud group Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (SFW)...its a great read and I'm glad Allen called out those scumbags    

[JLS]

Idahohntr

So why did you gloss over RMEF's CEO David Allens stance on wolves??

“Wolf reintroduction is the worst ecological disaster since the decimation of bison herds,” Allen said recently, as he claimed that wolves are “decimating” and “annihilating” elk herds. “To keep wolf populations controlled, states will have to hold hunts, shoot wolves from the air and gas their dens,” he said.

Seems like this is in opposition to everything you and JLS have said on HW.

Everything I have said on here is either based on direct personal experience and observation, or quantifiable data.  I have attached links to published documents that support my statements.

I have freely admitted that at one point, I shared an opinion very similar to Allen's statement.  I feared the worst.  However, many years later, my opinions have changed.

[wolfbait]

I always find it ironic and amusing that when folks speak to their real world experiences, and they don't coincide with and confirm the biases that people have, then it becomes "pushing an agenda".

Unfortunately, I don't find it amusing but rather sad and distasteful. Name calling and branding always weaken an argument.

I've simply grown to accept it, particularly on wolf threads.  It always becomes quite obvious when objectivity and the ability to read goes out the window, and is replaced by emotion and arguing what you think you are reading.

I think I read that Idahohntr is in lockstep with REMF - and I can get behind this article.

http://missoulian.com/news/local/rocky-mountain-elk-foundation-offers-to-finance-more-aggressive-wolf/article_18f6cc20-7222-11e1-a853-001871e3ce6c.html

Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation leaders want state wildlife officials to get more aggressive about wolf control, and they’ve offered at least $50,000 to make it happen.

“We are not utilizing anywhere near to the fullest of what the wolf management plan authorizes,” RMEF president David Allen said on Monday. “The go-slow, take-it-easy approach is not working.”

Allen said his group wants to see reductions in black bears, mountain lions and coyotes as well as wolves to help the state’s struggling ungulate populations. Wolves, lions and bears are blamed for falling populations of elk in several parts of Montana, while coyotes are a threat to eastern Montana deer and antelope populations that have also suffered major disease outbreaks.

“This is where this all starts to domino if you don’t keep predators managed,” Allen said. “And the next step is the grizzly bear. We’ve got bear issues with elk calves in the spring – both grizzly and black bear. We can’t have all these predators with little aggressive management and expect to have ample game herds and sell hunting tags and generate revenue that supports FWP nearly 100 percent.”

But I gotta say, it doesn't sound like the Idahohntr I been reading lately - did someone hack his account?

Yep, predators, like all other wildlife need managed.  Again, you seem to be falsely implying I don't support predator management.  RMEF is largely a habitat protection organization...their primary focus is conserving and enhancing habitat for elk and other wildlife.  I consistently make the point of how important habitat issues are to wildlife.  Randy Newberg is on the Board of Directors of RMEF...I'm a huge supporter of his views on wildlife management...he often rails against fringe groups like lobowatch, BGF, and SFW. 

Perhaps you should read this article posted on RMEF's website applauding WDFW's common-sense approach to utilizing a Montana pilot approach to wolf management: http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/PressRoom/PredatorManagementControl/BugleArticles/WashingtonWolves.aspx

"A delegation from WDFW including Phil Anderson, director, and Dave Ware, game division manager, spent two days in November touring the Blackfoot with staff from the Blackfoot Challenge and Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. The Blackfoot Challenge is a nonprofit cooperative centered in the Blackfoot Valley that helps forge partnerships in an effort to “conserve and enhance the natural resources and rural way of life throughout the watershed.” http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/PressRoom/PredatorManagementControl/BugleArticles/WashingtonWolves.aspx

Lets take a little look at who and what the Blackfoot Challenge is all about:  http://www.coloradocollege.edu/other/stateoftherockies/llcpractitionersnetwork/blackfoot-challenge.dot

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So WDFW will ignore the wolf history from Idaho, Wyoming and the rest of Montana in favor of those who associate with "environmental" groups who support Ted Turner etc..  That's no shock to me, look at WDFW's wild lands plan for the next thirty years. No Mention of Hunting what so ever. WDFW Wild Lands Project:  http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,150293.225.html

I might remind a few folks, that the RMEF sat on their hands for 14 years and said nothing as the wolves decimated the game herds in ID, MT and Wyoming. WDFW etc. can buy up as much land as they wish, but unless they wolf fence their habitat it will end up with as many ungulates as the rest of the country that has uncontrolled predators.  In a predator pit or worse.

"Along with swift response to any depredations, the key to sustaining successful relations between humans and predators in the Blackfoot Valley is the host of preventative measures employed jointly by landowners, public land management agencies and nonprofits. These methods include high-voltage electric fencing around livestock calving areas, fladry (a visual type of fencing where colored flags are hung from wire), prompt removal of livestock carcasses, guard dogs and a range rider program."

Which has been proven not to work. The USFWS have stated in the past that the only way to stop wolf predation on livestock is to kill all the wolves responsible including full packs right down to the pups, a practice the USFWS started early on in Wyoming.

We have already established that WDFW are not allowing enough hunting of predators such as cougars and bears to control the population. Throw an uncontrolled wolf population in on top and it is only a matter of time before hunting slows to a halt.

“Being long-distance travelers, wolves can be very difficult to find and keep track of,” says Liz Bradley, regional wolf management specialist for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. ”Gathering wolf sighting reports from the public has been invaluable in gaining a better understanding of wolf distribution in the area.”

I think most of us figured out early on how WDFW would manage wolves when they selected their wolf working group, stacked with agenda driven pro-wolfers. And then when the bogus wolf plan was passed, we knew WDFW had nailed the door shut on any kind of wolf control.

Look at WA today, six years later we are still not delisted, but then how could we be when WDFW refuse to acknowledge wolf sightings, and refuse to confirm livestock kills? WDFW are a joke in many counties that now have wolves, a very sad joke.

[Special T]

ESA is federal law.  Anti-hunter groups use ESA to push agendas.  Those two are not mutually exclusive.  Those are just facts.  I did not contradict myself. 

So what agenda am I pushing?  Are we back to these silly accusations that I'm an anti-hunter? Really? 

I stand by what I said about WDFW.  They are not the enemy, they are the biggest ally we have in this state when it comes to wolf management and future deer and elk hunting.  If you can't accept that I guess you can sit on the sidelines and complain about why other groups and organizations have more say about how wildlife is managed than you do.  Suit yourself.

That is simply NOT true. The actions of the WDFW demonstrate that. You must of missed my previous posts. Please review them because there is a small  list of things they COULD have done or tried that would make them an "Ally". They simply are not, and to say so is absurd. What are you basing that statement on?

Who manages the wildlife in this state?  Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. 

I believe they very much have sportsmens interests at heart...but they also have to pursue those interests through a minefield of political pitfalls that folks like you and I probably don't really see very clearly...and yes, occassionally they stumble.  But in the end if sportsmen are not supportive of WDFW the greenies win.  As Bobcat pointed out, the greenies don't like the wolf plan either...they want 2x as many wolves 

I think the most generous statement you could make is that the WDFW is neutral on the issue. At BEST the WDFW is playing defense. They do what they can to not piss off CNW & DoW, and attempt to keep happy sportsmen. Playing defense is reactive not proactive. Proactive = Advocate

“You may fool all the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time.”

 Abraham Lincoln quotes (American 16th US President (1861-65),

[KFhunter]

I read that turkey thread,  incompetence seems to be the underlying theme with WDFW.