Of Roosevelt Elk, Bacteria, Hooves and Herbicides

[idahohuntr]

After I connected Exponent to Syngenta, Dr. Anne Fairbrother's testimony refuting Dr. Mora and Krystal Davies was a lights on moment for me. it seemed pretty clear to me that someone's looking to cover their butts, whether it be the DFW or WEYCO. I still want to know who invited her to the party. This is ground zero for Syngenta. They sell $330M worth of that stuff in the US per year and there's a lot at stake. They can't even legally sell or use it in their own country, Switzerland.

Here's an article about a guy who went up against them after he was one of their scientists and left the company. They had people following him, showing up at his speeches and discrediting him. This is big stuff.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/02/10/140210fa_fact_aviv?currentPage=all

  So please explain to me how wdfw is covering their butt if weyco is spraying timberlands that are toxic to elk?  Wait, let me go get some popcorn...I have a feeling I will need to adjust my tinfoil hat 

So are the other independent experts also in collusion on this massive felony and cover-up?  Or are these independent experts just not as smart as some internet reserachers who know nothing about disease and toxins?

Now just to be clear...we've got Dave Ware in the candle room with the herbicide right?  Or is it Mansfield in the library with the leptospirosis?  I love this game...for a while I thought this was serious. 

[BsB]

Is hoof rot more prevalent in sw wa? I've heard reports from locals here in snoqualmie that the reason wdfw opened up elk area 4601 this year with 3pt or any cow is because of hoof rot and over population of elk in the valley herd.

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[bbarnes]

So when you look at msds sheets and they say from the label, they attack soft tissue there's no evidence ?Its attacking tissue between the hoofs of the elk that's where it starts correct?Then inflames to the joint which starts them limping,then hoofs start to over grow from no wear because it's to pain full to walk on that hoof.Then the secondary problem starts from the infection,that WDFW employees believe to be treponema.None of the Tag group could agree to this also if you were in attendance you would have seen the same.I also recorded the meeting and have spent lots of hours, relistening to testimony.That was to get clear in my mind that they no nothing more, than they did a decade ago,when they thought it would solve its self.Now were at the point where they have outsourced all research to Who?Where did they gather these specialist from what are there back grounds who picked them.Why if they have been involved did we go through 2 hrs of power point getting them up to speed on what's going on.Why had none of them ever seen ,a limping elk before that meeting?These are all thing that send up red flags with me,especially when they bring in lobbyists.

[idahohuntr]

Ok...now were on to a completely different theory...I love this ever changing story...just keep changing mechanisms and theories but make sure herbicides are in the mix somehow 

So, the herbicides attack the soft tissue and cause the primary damage that allows the trepomene bacteria to attack?  Then why are deer not showing the same response?  They have smaller hooves and should be more susceptible. 

[jongosch]

Some of you guys are going to love this!

Marsha Lafarge, the Clerk of the Board for Wahkiakum County just forwarded me a letter of grievance signed by all three Wahkiakum County Commissioners and addressed to WDFW stating that, “Wahkiakum County and its citizens are deeply troubled by the actions of the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife regarding the hoof rot disease.” 

They ask, “Why won’t WDFW let Dr. Boone Mora study this disease which he has stated he will do on his own time and with little help from fish and game?” 

In closing, the commissioners write that, “Dr. Mora has other citizens who wish to help and the project would be called ‘Citizens for Healthy Elk.’”

I'll try and figure out how I can get the whole document up on here or just type it out if I have to.  It says at the bottom of the email that it's subject to the Public Records Act if anybody doesn't believe me.

[bbarnes]

There have been reports of deer with hoof rot,ask Saundra Yonkers she told us that at our pre hoof rot public meeting we put on.It may be there browsers not grazers,so the effects aren't  as severe.One things for sure you really don't see many deer anymore,in SW Washington.AGAIN SHOW SOME OF YOUR RESEARCH just go buy a bottle of round up and read the precautions.Then mix 5 of similar toxins together wash your hands in it and then eat a sandwich.Post your reactions from the nearest hospital if you survive.

[grundy53]

There have been reports of deer with hoof rot,ask Saundra Yonkers she told us that at our pre hoof rot public meeting we put on.It may be there browsers not grazers,so the effects aren't  as severe.One things for sure you really don't see many deer anymore,in SW Washington.AGAIN SHOW SOME OF YOUR RESEARCH just go buy a bottle of round up and read the precautions.Then mix 5 of similar toxins together wash your hands in it and then eat a sandwich.Post your reactions from the nearest hospital if you survive.

The main reason for the drop in the deer population was because of the lice/mange epidemic that hit in the 90's decimating the population.

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[grundy53]

The article by Cascadia Wildlands lost me as a reader when I read this part:

western wildlife commissions are too accepting of the ideas forwarded by some extreme hunting groups that increasingly reflect the views of these same resource-dependent industries such as increasing clearcuts, aggressive predator control, protection of public lands grazing and more road creation for access rather than hitting the conservation sweet spots of habitat restoration, wilderness preservation, road retirement and water quality improvement. In essence, both the commissions and these more trophy hunting-oriented groups have been quietly coopted by the very elements that do damage to the natural resources needed by all wildlife and fish.

I'll have to try to open my mind a bit more and go read the rest of the story.  But I don't like the label as "extreme hunting group" when we believe clearcuts can be good for wildlife, and aggressive predator control is good.  That made me tune out immediately and dismiss them.  I will go back and read more later though. 

That was enough for me. I definitely do not have the same view of what is good for our wildlife.

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[idahohuntr]

AGAIN SHOW SOME OF YOUR RESEARCH just go buy a bottle of round up and read the precautions.Then mix 5 of similar toxins together wash your hands in it and then eat a sandwich.Post your reactions from the nearest hospital if you survive.

Ok...this is exactly the kind of stupidity that is not helpful in solving the hoof rot issue.  Your point is that if I won't eat roundup then herbicides must cause hoof rot?  Do you realize how stupid that comes across? 

I've said multiple times toxins in the environment are not good.  Maybe there are too many herbicides...that does not mean it is the cause of hoof rot.

[idahohuntr]

They ask, “Why won’t WDFW let Dr. Boone Mora study this disease which he has stated he will do on his own time and with little help from fish and game?” 

I don't understand whats stopping him?  Get a scientific collecting permit for WA state which is a very easy thing to do and go collect whatever samples and data he needs.    Sounds like excuses to me...sounds like somebody is interested in making grandiose statements at public meetings and getting attention, but when it comes to producing results...well...lets just say he is lacking.

[bbarnes]

The point is if all the clear cuts are NUKED with toxins,it leaves nothing for the wildlife to survive on.We all know that elk in poor Heath trigger wildlife problems, and they live in this environment.In addition the WDFW S credibility is shot at this point, to many inconsistent statements made.We need a wildlife congress,with a rep from each county.No one attached with a agenda that lobbyists  could get to,just honest info that would be listened to by the commission.Each would have a vote,on all issue brought before the director.Each county would appoint a congressman,and that way it would be for the wildlife not the budget.Don't get upset get involved show up speak your mind,and read up on the harmful toxins being sprayed in a forest near you.The next sandwich you might eat,could be a CROW sandwich when it's all over.

[kentrek]

Idaho, can you at least agree that there is a chance, however small..that chemicals are the root cause of the issues with our elk ?? And that its a little annoying to have them not test for it

Even if its not a cause at the least eliminate it from the possibilities so we can focus our efforts in a more productive way

[bbarnes]

Well it's a double standard with Bone ,they want him to pay a fee for his free service.Then they want a procedure manual, when the WDFW has no plan in place.All he want to do is a live study, he won't be killing 43 elk with no results.Were currently working on another angle to this by collecting elk droppings and we will have them tested for toxins.

[Mudman]

If WDFW was really with it they would have had answers years ago.  I just dont trust or believe them.  More inclined to believe the spraying argument, including Dr. Mora. Heck they wouldnt even accept money from RMEF to help study elk.  Idahohntr it seems you may have the blinders on?  Wasnt the argument that chemical banned in most of civilized countries affects immune systems and naturally occurring lepto bacteria capitalizes on this auto=imune weakness?  Seems plausible so why not study it?   I have family who have watched this disease progress from its origin area since early 90s.  Most all of them say its the spraying.  They dont buy the "safe"meat wdfw claims.   Isnt some fish loaded with high mercury?  But its safe too?  Doesnt mercury stay in system and accumulate?  Just saying- I dont trust em and like to research a little and error on side of safety.

[idahohuntr]

Idaho, can you at least agree that there is a chance, however small..that chemicals are the root cause of the issues with our elk ?? And that its a little annoying to have them not test for it

Even if its not a cause at the least eliminate it from the possibilities so we can focus our efforts in a more productive way

I have agreed that herbicides and general forest management practices may well be at the root cause of this complex problem...but when folks say "test for it"...well, its very clear that toxins are not the direct cause.  It is not that elk are eating/ingesting herbicides and because of the toxicity their hooves are having problems.  That is really not even debatable.  Now...have land management practices, herbicides, fertilizers, other environmental changes resulted in an increase or spread of the bacteria associated with hoof rot?  Has the trepomene bacteria evolved to a much more aggressive and infectious strand like other diseases so often do?  All very reasonable hypotheses.  But this mindset that herbicides are being ingested and hoof rot is a symptom of toxicity is just not reasonable.  So yes, I do think it may be involved in the problem in a tertiary way...but these allegations that its a toxic/poisonous problem and wdfw is protecting the timber industry from having to reveal how toxic this stuff is to animals...    And can these people stick with one conspiracy please...I mean seriously...now were on this bend that its toxicity and wdfw hasn't "tested" for it...then its leptospirosis...then its a copper deficiency    And yet these same people with a straight face say wdfw doesn't know whats going on...well, wdfw knows a lot more than they do, they just openly admit many of their uncertainties and these clowns take that to mean wdfw has no clue.  Often in complex problems it is difficult to be "certain" in scientific terms...that is why from day 1 I was skeptical of these grandiose claims from amateurs...not saying the public pressure hasn't been a good thing...but I don't buy all the ocean front property I'm offered...even if its cheap.   

I waited until I had a chance to hear directly from WDFW scientists/veterinarians before weighing in significantly on this topic.  I am not a hoof disease expert or a toxicologist or a veterinarian...but I have dealt with my share of complex problems and I am pretty good at figuring out who the snake oil salesman are...unfortunately, it appears to me that some well meaning people have got caught up in the frenzy...hopefully they apply some of their own critical thinking to this complex problem and focus their efforts on stuff that matters and not on conspiracy laden propaganda that makes for a great news story or book for an aspiring journalist.