Of Roosevelt Elk, Bacteria, Hooves and Herbicides

[kentrek]

Hard to have evidence when they won't test for it 

[Curly]

It is a good question about the increase in cases in '08.  But couldn't it be that it took that long for the elk to have enough toxic buildup for the bacteria to really cause problems?   

WDFW is their own worst enemy.  If they had taken this disease seriously 15 years ago instead of just recently there would likely be less people skeptical of their actions.

It does seem a little hard to believe that hoof disease could be a result of herbicide use when herbicides are used in Oregon and they aren't reporting any problems like this.  My only explanation for that though, is maybe whoever is doing the spraying for Weyco in SW WA is using something different (or different doses or mixing it) than what Weyco in Oregon is using.  And even if they say they are using the same as what is used elsewhere, how much can you believe them since if they are using it different than what is allowed by law then they could be in trouble.  So, I don't know the answer, but it sounds like somebody's feet are going to be held to the fire until some answers are found.

Now, I'm going to try to finish that article that Jon Gosch posted.

[kentrek]

WDFW is their own worst enemy.  If they had taken this disease seriously 15 years ago instead of just recently

The biggest issue......

[jongosch]

...but a panel of very credible independent experts seem to not be leaning that way at all right now.  Not because they haven't considered it, but because the available evidence does not support it.

Unlike you, idaho, I was at the TAG meeting in Vancouver... with a voice recorder.  Here's just a snippet of the article I'm finishing up with.

"WDFW’s technical advisory group demonstrated that it’s not just citizen activists who believe ‘hoof rot’ may be associated with our forest practices.  Dr. Paul Kohrs, Acting State Veterinarian with the Department of Agriculture, stated that “something must be done different down here with forest practices” and added that “it needs to be explored.”

Dr. Gary Haldorson, a clinical instructor and veterinary pathologist at WSU, wondered whether WDFW will be able to understand the detrimental effects of herbicides and their role in hoof disease until testing is done on live elk.

“Are there also studies where you just give these chemicals at low doses to animals and see what happens?” Haldorson asked.  “I mean, long-term.  Here is the theory that I’m throwing out there as a random theory, but what if one of these chemicals could cause defects in the keratinization over time?  Well, if we’re not looking for defects in keratinization as an end point, then would any of the studies ever know that?”

“Yeah, you wouldn’t,” answered Dr. Anne Fairbrother, a toxicology consultant whose company Exponent is known for “its scientific research on behalf of corporate clients facing product liability concerns.”

Idaho??  Did you swallow those words of yours yet???  How about this from a WDFW TAG expert:

“This is going to sound really bizarre and I’ll just throw it out there because I don’t really care what you think about me.  The first time you showed me those pictures, I thought, this looks like toxic shock syndrome," said Dale Moore, an expert in preventive veterinary medicine at WSU.

Here's another from Moore:

“There’s lots of pieces to the puzzle and you’re mentioning lots of different bacteria.  That’s one piece of the puzzle… but there are others things that seem to be missing in the puzzle.  Big pieces.  The big pieces are the environmental factors and why this particular region and not other regions.  What is missing?  What’s the difference?  And that should be what’s staring us in the face… Why this location and not Ellensburg?  Why this location and not Spokane?”

[Curly]

Ok.  I finished the article and I do like it.  The author did write a pretty good article. 

I guess we are going to have to learn to take help from some of the organizations that we would usually be skeptical.

[bobcat]

Since nobody has ever done the proper studies on all these chemicals, I would like to see something like a 5 year moratorium on all herbicide use on timberlands in SW Washington.

[Curly]

Can anyone tell me when the widespread use of these chemicals started?  If they started applying them in clearcuts in the 80's and elk started showing with hoof disease in early to mid 90's then maybe a 5 year moritorium is not quite enough time to really make a determination.  Maybe 10 years is what it takes to build up enough toxins to affect them? 

Any loggers that are in the know?

[bbarnes]

Plus the FACT THERE SPRAYING 2and 1/2 time the toxins in SW Washington.Could this be a factor with no oversight who knows.Give us why these couldn't be a factor.Also you sit on a board that is a HUGE part of the problem, over harvest and over pursuit.The elk never get a break the WALL MART METHOD OF HUNTING.Its about a budget not a recourse.If there looking for cash I've stated before charge archers for cow tags.

[bbarnes]

Plus the FACT THERE SPRAYING 2and 1/2 time the toxins in SW Washington.Could this be a factor with no oversight who knows.Give us why these couldn't be a factor.Also you sit on a board that is a HUGE part of the problem, over harvest and over pursuit.The elk never get a break the WALL MART METHOD OF HUNTING.Its about a budget not a recourse.If there looking for cash I've stated before charge archers for cow tags.

[jongosch]

It does seem a little hard to believe that hoof disease could be a result of herbicide use when herbicides are used in Oregon and they aren't reporting any problems like this.

I've been hearing a lot of rumors from credible folks that there are indeed some strange things going on with the elk herds in Oregon that are likely related to these sprays.  If anybody has any solid documentation, now would be the time to share it.

[Curly]

That article you posted is the first I've heard of limping elk in OR. 

Thank you guys for pushing this.   

[Special T]

I do think its interesting that this is pretty much located in SW wa.. I must say that in the SW the woods are REALLY clean in comparison to the woods up here. nearly all the brush is stacked burnt, and the only things that seem to grow a bunch in the reprod is ferns.

Is the Chemicle some kind of broad leaf poisen?

[idahohuntr]

...but a panel of very credible independent experts seem to not be leaning that way at all right now.  Not because they haven't considered it, but because the available evidence does not support it.

Unlike you, idaho, I was at the TAG meeting in Vancouver... with a voice recorder.  Here's just a snippet of the article I'm finishing up with.

I'm not interested in snippets...I'm interested in the totatlity of the evidence.  It is becoming even more clear to me that folks concerned with herbicides do not have a very good understanding of toxicology.  I don't disagree that there may be some tertiary level consequence of spraying herbicides that results in an environment more conducive to a bacteria that infects hooves.  However, the suggestions of many that build up of toxins is the cause and rotting hooves are a symptom is not at all correct or supportable.  Testing of numerous filter organs (kidney, liver, lungs etc.) show no signs of damage or stress as would be expected if they were exposed to toxins so bad their hooves were rotting off!!

I've been hearing a lot of rumors from credible folks that there are indeed some strange things going on

Again...your whole premise is based on rumor mongering and speculation...I will stick with the overall conclusions of the 15 independent experts 

Plus the FACT THERE SPRAYING 2and 1/2 time the toxins in SW Washington.Could this be a factor with no oversight who knows.Give us why these couldn't be a factor.Also you sit on a board that is a HUGE part of the problem, over harvest and over pursuit.The elk never get a break the WALL MART METHOD OF HUNTING.Its about a budget not a recourse.If there looking for cash I've stated before charge archers for cow tags.

If this is directed at me, and I'm not sure that it is, you are completely off the deep end. 

I'm quickly understanding what wdfw is dealing with and while it may make for interesting public meetings and the grandstanding allows retired county staff and hack journalists to get their 15 minutes of fame...none of it is actually helping solve the hoof rot problem...but lets face it, this isn't about hoof rot for some of you.  You've got well financed environmental groups stepping in to attack herbicide use/forest practices/large corporations etc....which I have no problem with.  Probably plenty of big companies polluting the environment that we should go after...but to suggest wdfw is behind this and that there is a direct herbicide/toxin/hoof rot link continues to be unsupported by the best available scientific evidence.     

[Special T]

I think its safe to say the SOP of the WDFW is defence, which means dont engage until you are threatend with a lawsuit of some kind.

Hunters have done a poor job of organising so they are the easiest ones to ignore. 

[pianoman9701]

After I connected Exponent to Syngenta, Dr. Anne Fairbrother's testimony refuting Dr. Mora and Krystal Davies was a lights on moment for me. it seemed pretty clear to me that someone's looking to cover their butts, whether it be the DFW or WEYCO. I still want to know who invited her to the party. This is ground zero for Syngenta. They sell $330M worth of that stuff in the US per year and there's a lot at stake. They can't even legally sell or use it in their own country, Switzerland.

Here's an article about a guy who went up against them after he was one of their scientists and left the company. They had people following him, showing up at his speeches and discrediting him. This is big stuff.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/02/10/140210fa_fact_aviv?currentPage=all