FOREST PRACTICE BOARD MEETING

[jongosch]

I have had a couple scientists knowledgeable of hoof rot to review this information and both of them believe that mineral deficiencies caused by the chelating effects of forest chemicals warrants further study as a potential cause or chief contributing factor to this horrendous disease.  I hope that WDFW will give it a thorough consideration.

This I believe is a very likely scenario.  It is not direct toxicity of the herbicides.  I really think it is one of 2 things:
1. As described above, herbicides have an indirect effect on elk by causing deficiencies in key minerals through changes in forage availability and forage quality making elk much more susceptible to the direct cause of hoof rot (likely a bacteria found in the soil)
2. Bacteria that cause hoof rot have evolved and elk are much more susceptible to the disease than they were historically. 

These 2 things are not mutually exclusive. 

I hope by your citing so much of Mansfields work here you are starting to realize that she is not the enemy, but a key person in solving this complex problem. 

Holy crap, are idahohuntr and I starting to share common ground!! 

That's right, I don't believe hoof disease is caused by direct toxicity of the herbicides, but a more roundabout path that by no means exonerates these chemicals.  I think these herbicides are contributing to hoof disease in at least 3 ways:

1) Diminishing the quantity and quality of essential forage
2) The immunological properties of herbicides making the elk more susceptible to a whole gamut of maladies
3) Chelation of the soil which leads to mineral deficiencies that are a well-documented cause of keratin deformities

As for Dr. Mansfield, I'm sure that she's a fine lady and would like to do a good job.  There's probably a lot of politics at play that I'm not privy to.  Who knows?  Unfortunately for everyone, some of her and her colleagues' statements at recent meetings have driven a great many people into adversarial positions and have bred deep (Grand Canyon deep) distrust of WDFW.  It's very hard to restore trust once it's been broken. 

However, the greater prerogative for all of us should be solving this hoof disease problem and cleaning up our forests.  I'm not one to hold grudges, so if Dr. Mansfield and her colleagues can come around and actively investigate these connections, I will be the first to cheer them on.   

[pianoman9701]

It seems to me that WDFW was lax with this problem in the past. Because certain people are pressing the issue it will likely get the study it deserves. I have brought up the problem to the Parks and Recreation Task Force and Joe Stohr from WDFW has indicated that hoof rot is a priority issue with WDFW. It may turn out the chemicals are related to the problem or it may turn out that the chemicals have no effect. The important thing is that this is studied thoroughly by unbiased scientists that the people can trust.

[/b][/u]

Good luck with that, Dale. As you know, one of the"scientists" that the WDFW had at the June 3rd meeting was Dr. Fairbrother, a hired gun for Syngenta, manufacturer of Atrazine. Their own scientists, Mansfield and Junker are tainted with that stink as a result, and their conclusions are suspect. Do I know that chemicals are the cause? No. Do I know that their science is flawed and biased toward the herbicide and timber industries? No. Did they crap in their own bed by bringing in hired guns from the chemical industry to dispute Dr. Mora's testimony on the disease? They most certainly did. When i spoke to Jerry Nelson about this at the game management meeting here in Vancouver, he conceded that she was perhaps not a great choice for the meeting because of that perception. You think?

[ELKBURGER]

 :yeah:I think the malnourished theory has been around along time. Lets hope that WDFW get on that wagon.

[Curly]

I don't know if anyone thinking that herbicide use might be related to hoof rot thought that it could be the direct cause.

Really? There are probably hundreds of posts suggesting that.

Ok, maybe one guy might have thought herbicides might be a direct cause...........(the sandwich guy) but I got the impression that most thought that it was more likely an inderect link. 

[bearpaw]

I don't know if anyone thinking that herbicide use might be related to hoof rot thought that it could be the direct cause.

Really? There are probably hundreds of posts suggesting that.

Ok, maybe one guy might have thought herbicides might be a direct cause...........(the sandwich guy) but I got the impression that most thought that it was more likely an inderect link. 

If they ate the sandwich with the chemicals and had no ill effects they could prove the safety of the chemicals. 

[idahohuntr]

Holy crap, are idahohuntr and I starting to share common ground!! 

  I've never suggested herbicides are in any way beneficial to the environment.  Somehow that has been lost in the shuffle when I refused to join the wdfw bashing band wagon because I did not see it as productive.  I have also said in the past that some of the pressure helped make sure wdfw prioritized this issue appropriately.  But my criticism of some of the theories and some of the tactics and villifying specific wdfw folks perhaps overshadowed much of what I have said on this topic 

I thinks its great so many hunters are supporting looking at habitat issues as the root cause of declines in ungulates.  Over in the wolf threads it seems when folks like me mention habitat as a critical factor the screeching starts about how I'm just trying to hide the impacts of predators.  Baby steps.   

The two most important factors that will lead to loss of hunting opportunity in Washington State:
1. Loss of habitat quality and quantity
2. Loss of hunting access

[BOWHUNTER45]

Wonder why this has not effected the deer in the area ?  Maybe because there are no deer 

[jongosch]

I don't know if anyone thinking that herbicide use might be related to hoof rot thought that it could be the direct cause.

Really? There are probably hundreds of posts suggesting that.

Ok, maybe one guy might have thought herbicides might be a direct cause...........(the sandwich guy) but I got the impression that most thought that it was more likely an inderect link. 

If they ate the sandwich with the chemicals and had no ill effects they could prove the safety of the chemicals. 

The chemical companies would just make one of their lackeys eat the sandwich and then fire him as soon as he got sick 

[bbarnes]

You forgot the most important thing IDAHO, we the hunters have the power to change things.Don't by a hunting License to hunt here,that's what two thirds of the state hunters are doing now.It certainly has got there attention,plus why are they hiring a coordinator to take over the hoof rot issue,if they already have the best people on it?I think if this was happening in the blue mountains on the famed elk herd there that so many hunters spend money to put in for tags,there would be a lot more effort going into things.I bet if was on tribal lands it would have already be taken care of,because it's part of there heritage.

[pianoman9701]

Wonder why this has not effected the deer in the area ?  Maybe because there are no deer 

Who says it hasn't? Hair loss syndrome, deformed antler growth, population decreases, etc. See any grouse out there lately? Rabbits? Even coyotes? This is possibly doing a lot more damage than we're aware.

[jongosch]

A must read article:

A VALUABLE REPUTATION
After Tyrone Hayes said that a chemical was harmful, its maker pursued him.
BY RACHEL AVIV

In 2001, seven years after joining the biology faculty of the University of California, Berkeley, Tyrone Hayes stopped talking about his research with people he didn’t trust. He instructed the students in his lab, where he was raising three thousand frogs, to hang up the phone if they heard a click, a signal that a third party might be on the line. Other scientists seemed to remember events differently, he noticed, so he started carrying an audio recorder to meetings. “The secret to a happy, successful life of paranoia,” he liked to say, “is to keep careful track of your persecutors.”

Three years earlier, Syngenta, one of the largest agribusinesses in the world, had asked Hayes to conduct experiments on the herbicide atrazine, which is applied to more than half the corn in the United States. Hayes was thirty-one, and he had already published twenty papers on the endocrinology of amphibians. David Wake, a professor in Hayes’s department, said that Hayes “may have had the greatest potential of anyone in the field.” But, when Hayes discovered that atrazine might impede the sexual development of frogs, his dealings with Syngenta became strained, and, in November, 2000, he ended his relationship with the company.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/02/10/140210fa_fact_aviv?currentPage=all

[jackelope]

Wonder why this has not effected the deer in the area ?  Maybe because there are no deer 

Who says it hasn't? Hair loss syndrome, deformed antler growth, population decreases, etc. See any grouse out there lately? Rabbits? Even coyotes? This is possibly doing a lot more damage than we're aware.

There's no shortage of grouse....I can tell you that. At least not where we've hunted down there.
Hair loss is caused by something completely different. Wasn't it some sort of lice or mites or something?

[Curly]

Yeah it was lice.  I think the theory was that the lice came here on some animals from Asia?

I suppose it is possible that the chemicals cause some deer to be more susceptible to being affected by the lice?    Just wild speculation though.

And grouse numbers have been down from what I used to see 20 years ago, but then it is hard to say why exactly.  Could be from all the coyotes that are around since the ban on trapping and hounds in 1996? 

[Curly]

It does stand to reason though, that if the chemicals kill much of the weeds that insects are feeding on then there will be less food for grouse chicks (they eat a lot of insects) , thus there could be less grouse due to less feed for them.   

[bearpaw]

Wonder why this has not effected the deer in the area ?  Maybe because there are no deer 

Who says it hasn't? Hair loss syndrome, deformed antler growth, population decreases, etc. See any grouse out there lately? Rabbits? Even coyotes? This is possibly doing a lot more damage than we're aware.

There's no shortage of grouse....I can tell you that. At least not where we've hunted down there.
Hair loss is caused by something completely different. Wasn't it some sort of lice or mites or something?

Where you saw the grouse were you hunting on the tree farms that have been sprayed?