AKC has lost it.

[jetjockey]

Why are you defending the AKC so much?  Do you agree with their stance?

The AF should stay out of it.  There's no reason to insert themselves into the AKC's internal fight.

[wildweeds]

Hey make no mistake about it, Mr. Mathys is all about the money too.................And there is just as much crooked AF stuff that goes on as in the AKC(For example,accepting a check to register a litter for futurity nomination a year an a half after the nominations close,and 10 days prior to the futurity running) . Jet will get it figured out quick if he starts running in open pointer/setter stakes.An amateur will not win an open stake,amateurs winning open stakes steals money from pro trainers/handlers pockets,the amateurs who do win those stakes  with any consistancy have very large pocketbooks (Sean Derrig is one,Sean Kelly is another),There is a large percentage of amateurs and pros alike who cheat cheat cheat and falsify papers as to the real age of the dog.Mulitple X CH derby dogs(less than 30 months old) are far longer in the teeth than as advertised on paper.Many setters are actually poinsetters with 50% of the blood coursing through their veins being pointer,same is true of German shorthairs(Dan Hoke got embarrased with a DNA test that didn't match GSP after a futurity win at a national breed event) and last but not least Brits have the blood of BOTH setter and orange and white pointers running in a few of them,long leggedness is not a brittiany trait,neither is blistering speed or range,Bobby Kirk was rumored to have bred Orange and white setter AA CH Alamance Little Rock to more than a couple brittianys for 400 a squirt out behind the woodshed. AF It's an old boy's club,octegenarians with more money than they know what to do with,they blow it on dogs so as to ensure spoiling their heirs  with just the right amount.New blood in the judicial seats and what do you get? A repeat setter national champion,2 years in a row after a 42 year drought.Coincidence I think not many qualified participants gave their all in those 42 years and public opinion of those who watched said setters were robbed, Tekoa mountain sunrise was one,Ida o priscella was another,Jetsetter was also robbed IMO after watching the video far more stylish on point and rock solid after the flight and gunsmoke,ZERO letdown .I believe in putting up the best dog,but in the south you'll need to get past the notion of if it ain't a pointer........  Ferrell Miller IMO did more for developing  better birddogs in the last 50 years than any other individual,what did it get him? Banned for life from Jet's beloved AF trial system,nobody likes a winner,Gary lester and Ike Todd continue to carry the torch that burns the white dog banner,Ferrell got the collateral damage ousting by owning a stud dog and signing the slip that the stud had bred a female,the female was misrepresented at breeding time,the sole person involved in the deception belonged to the owner of the dam,but it was a way to kick Ferrell to the curb and get rid of him forever.I highly doubt the man cares a lick..........

Then she needs to be fired.  She CLEARLY references the AKC and says "we" believe there are better methods.  Never mind the fact that she is on National TV representing the AKC as there spokesman.   Nowhere in the interview did she EVER say it was her opinion!  She clearly stated it was the opinion of the AKC, and she was representing them as their spokesman.  The AKC is just trying to cover their Azz.

AF has an opportunity to make a stand and be influential. They should step up to the plate and do some interviews with Fox News on the subject and use their strong influential power on the east coast to shame the AKC and all the weaknesses of their registration, history and performance dept. history to show the nation.

[jetjockey]

That happens in all breed competitions.  People cheat to win in every sport.  It's the downside to competition.  Luckily, most of the cross breeding is going away with DNA testing. As far as AF goes, how many amateur football teams beat NFL teams?  How many amateur boxers can beat a pro?  There's a reason Amateurs dont do as well.  They are AMATEURS!  That has nothing to do with the AKC openly decrying e-collars to tens of millions of viewers on public TV.

Wild.  Before you open your mouth about the South, you might want to come down here and experience it first.  It's a pointer AND setter world down here.  The problem isn't bias from Setters.  The problem is very few Setters get qualified for the National.  There was a time when Setters used to OWN the National.  Where was the bias then? 

[AspenBud]

Cover dog is an American Field venue, not run in the South, and setters hold their own, if not dominate, in that venue and even a Brittany has managed to crack the glass ceiling in it. AF is about more than horseback dogs and quail. And cover dog has its own championship outside of Ames.

Setters have been a minority at Ames for years and there are some good reasons, not the least of which involves breed personalities. If any of those controversial losses had been made wins I'd bet anything that folks on the Pointer side would have said there was favoritism because it was a setter.

American Field also made no secret that outcrosses between setters and pointers were allowed under certain conditions. They did it for years and those interim dogs were called droppers. People can say what they want about that but it's not a stretch to say that most all setters and pointers competing in a field trial (it does not matter if it's NSTRA, AF, AKC, NBHA, BDC, or whatever) or that come from such heritage (95% of Pointers in the US do) have more than a few AF registered dogs in their breeding at some point. German shorthairs? They aren't called that just because they aren't registered in Germany, many many of them have a heavy dose of vitamin P (Pointer) in them and that includes dogs not involved with field trials. A lot of them are not the same as dogs in Germany and would not pass a DNA test there. Want to take bets where some of the Pointers involved came from? No one's hands are clean (if anyone thinks what AF did is bad) and it's not really an argument when it comes to which organization has had the most influence in field trialdom when it comes to setters and Pointers and even Brittanys.

There are a lot of people who like lines that are set in stone and never outcrossed. Folks breeding llewellin setters are of that mindset. Hardcore Elhew folks are another (and there are only 3-4 true Elhew kennels in this country and they aren't west of the Mississippi). The problem is with time those lines degrade or fail to keep up unless new blood is brought in. Pick your poison, a lot of people swear by Elhew and llewellin breedings for hunting dogs, but if setter folks were dismayed at how long it took to win at Ames the llewellin folks haven't even had a dog compete there in years...and Bob Wehle is dead.

[AspenBud]

"So it has been forty-three years since a setter has won the National at the Ames Plantation in Grand Junction, Tennessee. More than half a human lifetime. Some thought setter fans would never see another setter National Champion.

Why so seldom? Because Pointers are easier and quicker to train to the harsh and peculiar requirements of this extreme sport. Or stated another way, because it generally takes longer for a setter to round into form, and a setter is more likely to suffer a setback in the process, and so fewer and fewer patrons and handlers choose the longhair as a candidate. Economics and impatience."

http://strideaway.com/shadow-oak-bo-meditations-on-a-pedigree/

[AspenBud]

An amateur will not win an open stake,amateurs winning open stakes steals money from pro trainers/handlers pockets,the amateurs who do win those stakes  with any consistancy have very large pocketbooks (Sean Derrig is one,Sean Kelly is another)

Most amateurs will not win because All Age trials at that level really are a rich man's game. You need horses, land, well bred dogs, a good trainer, and money and time to campaign a dog enough just to have a chance at winning enough to make it big. It is simply out of reach for a lot of people.

A lot of guys are probably good enough to drive in NASCAR but most don't have the money for that either.