Hunting Spots Destroyed?

[khunter#1]

Was anyone's hunting spot destroyed in the Carlton Complex fire.I'm sure my spot is destroyed, but have not had the time to head over there. Do you guys have any pictures of the destruction of the fire in the national forest? Also, how will all these fires affect the hunting season this year? . Thanks

[muleracks]

For maps of the burns I would go to inciweb.nwcg.gov/washington

Not sure how hot the burn was but many times the area will increase carrying capacity following a burn.  It might take 3 or 4 years but it will come back.

[khunter#1]

Thanks for reply, Will check out tat map

[no.cen.wa]

I took a drive from Okanogan (hiway 20)to Twisp and down the Methow(hiway 153) to Carlton. My old hunting camp on Frazer Creek not too far west from the Loop Loop summit was pretty burned up, Jack creek, Smith Canyon, Poll Pick and the WDFW Game range all had fire. There had been 2 good days on rain showers and quite a bit of mud flow in low spots. The fire seemed to have moved fast and many trees where still standing with the needles rusty brown from the fire, don't think they will make it. In the Tripod Fire area many trees where burned so bad the looked like black spears sticking up, with no limbs left. Roads where not gated but I understand they are still closed. To be truthful we really won't know how bad things are till we have access and get up in the woods. I could see some trees that had green needles and may be ok. Many spots were looked like a control burn had gone though, ALL underbrush and grass gone. I hope for a good saoking rain so we can get in the woods and check it out.
 Well thats what I saw, not much help, huh!
              John G.

[singleshot12]

Won't these hunting spots be better than ever in a year or two?

[Skyvalhunter]

Some trails and camping places in the Methow will be opening soon.
http://methowvalleynews.com/2014/08/16/many-forest-areas-recreation-sites-to-reopen-sunday-on-methow-valley-and-tonasket-ranger-districts/

[runamuk]

Won't these hunting spots be better than ever in a year or two?

the areas where it simply burned underbrush yes...the areas where it scorched the earth to the point of looking like a bomb went off and the ground is now sterilized will take longer.  Incineration is not a healthy forest management tool.  So the answer will be yes and no. 

[bobcat]

Won't these hunting spots be better than ever in a year or two?

It may take a little longer than that, but yes, in the future there will again be some great mule deer hunting in the Methow Valley. Just like the Entiat, it burned up in the 90's, and shortly thereafter was putting out many bigger than average bucks.

[bobcat]

Won't these hunting spots be better than ever in a year or two?

It may take a little longer than that, but yes, in the future there will again be some great mule deer hunting in the Methow Valley. Just like the Entiat, it burned up in the 90's, and shortly thereafter was putting out many bigger than average bucks.

[singleshot12]

Yup ya gotta trust in good old Mother Nature for the long term

[Skyvalhunter]

Its not mother nature I am worried about it's the WDFW

[bigmacc]

Its not mother nature I am worried about it's the WDFW

I agree with you Skyvalhunter,but I,m a little concerned about the mother nature part also.If its a mild winter this year and alot of the migrators stay up high or at least at elevations above the burns and arnt pushed lower into the valley by an ugly winter the herd could dodge a potential catastrophy.If its a tough winter with above average snow depths along with cold temps that fluctuate and create those layers of crust, and those conditions stretch down the valley aways this herd will take a beating to the point it will take generations(if at all) to recover.I say this based on things staying the way they are now with predator issues etc. For the lucky ones that do survive a tough winter and are left to pass on the genetics and "rebuild" the herd, the herd is not going to "bounce back" if theres an abundance of things that want to eat them and they themselves are hungry.This is not going to be a quick recovery as some have said,add a tough winter(or 2) and predators who's numbers continue to grow and I,m afraid this herd will never be the same,and far from it...my opinion and my 

[bobcat]

If deer numbers decline drastically, couldn't we expect that predators would do the same?

[BOWHUNTER45]

Yup ya gotta trust in good old Mother Nature for the long term

[bigmacc]

If deer numbers decline drastically, couldn't we expect that predators would do the same?

Once again just my opinion but I,m thinking the predators are gonna be hanging around until theres nothing left to eat, which isnt going to help in "rebuilding"after a tough winter or two (heaven forbid)then some will move out or possibly start going after livestock,pets etc. Once the deer numbers take a hit or there numbers are drastically decreased you,ll probably see a decline in predator numbers,they will move on. All i do know is that an exploding predator population in this valley preying on whats left after a tough winter or two is not going help the recovery effort get a foothold for this herd to begin rebuilding...

[Skyvalhunter]

What a lot of people don't realize now is the Methow deer herd is a mere shadow of what it used to be. It has continued to decline. Now there is another predator raising it's head, then you throw in the WDFW's proposal to increase doe tags. It's a shame to see this once trophy herd diminished to what it is.

[bigmacc]

What a lot of people don't realize now is the Methow deer herd is a mere shadow of what it used to be. It has continued to decline. Now there is another predator raising it's head, then you throw in the WDFW's proposal to increase doe tags. It's a shame to see this once trophy herd diminished to what it is.

Heres some numbers that will make your head spin, and to some, make you sick to your stomach. It may open others eyes to the direction this herd is heading and how it is not the pride and joy of the GAME dept as it once was pre 1970,s......Here ya go---Amongst these units(212,218,224,230,236 and half of 242) in 1968,the mule deer harvest was 14,260 animals,nearly40 percent of the total mule deer harvest for washington state came out of these 6 units that year! Compare this to Mr Fitkens estimate of a total of about 10,000 mule deer(locals and migration animals) who use this valley today,do the math-about 4 thousand more animals were HARVESTED in 1968 than what they estimate the WHOLE HERD to be now for gosh sakes!!!(and IMHO i think that estimate of 10,000 is way high!)Now the season of 1968 was a good year for sure but it puts into perspective the direction this once mighty herd is headed. I believe this herd was once estimated at around 30 to 40 thousand animals in the not to distance past. In my opinion they are not the priority they once were with other issues,programs and interests taking priority now...The numbers dont lie unfortunatly....my 

[no.cen.wa]

It will be interesting to get "in the woods" and see how hot the fire got, 20 years ago there was a small fire at the head of Wolf Canyon, east of Lower Beaver Creek Rd.  it burned so hot that nothing grew for 10-12 years, there wasn't even a stump left where it was hottest. From what I could see from hiway 20 it wasn't that hot, I only hope most of it wasn't that hot.
By the way, although there was no vegetation the deer still moved though, just nothing to stop for!    Time will tell

[bigmacc]

What a lot of people don't realize now is the Methow deer herd is a mere shadow of what it used to be. It has continued to decline. Now there is another predator raising it's head, then you throw in the WDFW's proposal to increase doe tags. It's a shame to see this once trophy herd diminished to what it is.

I stand shoulder to shoulder with you on this one

[no.cen.wa]

bigmacc, can you remember when the wdfw gave 500 doe tags for unit 224,,, and 500 for each of all the surrounding units? I think 1960's-1970's. We always put in for the tag and wouldn't use it if we were drawn. I also remember talking to a retired wdfw guy at the game range on the Loop Loop, he told me he would bring feed in for the deer to help them make it though the winter. He said there would be 300-400 deer in Shrive Canyon when they migrated down for the winter. I was pretty excited about that till I talked to my grandfather, he had a ranch not far from there, He said "thats too bad" he said he would ride his horse up to Shrive and Peterson Canyons and would lose track of the count when it got over 1000 or so, he said thats sitting still and counting, not moving around! He moved there form Wenatchee in the 1920's, not sure of the year, but he was there to the 1950's
     How times change! Now thats sad!

[bigmacc]

bigmacc, can you remember when the wdfw gave 500 doe tags for unit 224,,, and 500 for each of all the surrounding units? I think 1960's-1970's. We always put in for the tag and wouldn't use it if we were drawn. I also remember talking to a retired wdfw guy at the game range on the Loop Loop, he told me he would bring feed in for the deer to help them make it though the winter. He said there would be 300-400 deer in Shrive Canyon when they migrated down for the winter. I was pretty excited about that till I talked to my grandfather, he had a ranch not far from there, He said "thats too bad" he said he would ride his horse up to Shrive and Peterson Canyons and would lose track of the count when it got over 1000 or so, he said thats sitting still and counting, not moving around! He moved there form Wenatchee in the 1920's, not sure of the year, but he was there to the 1950's
     How times change! Now thats sad!

I beleive your right no.cen.wa, I think permits were issued going back into the 40,s and 50,s at different times also.They did not issue doe tags the year after the bad winters of 1936-37..1942-43...1949-50...1955-56...1964-65...or 1968-69. Funny,I remeber myself and our family doing the same things with doe tags,anyone in our camp that had them would use them for fire starter ,....Yep i remember seeing with my own eyes and hearing stories of the 1,2 and 300 head herds in that valley.I once saw one during the season as a matter of fact,it was when the season went into november and I and a pardner had a good feeling about a migration route we knew of,the weather,moon and conditions were all in place and i had a feeling we were gonna hit it perfect...And we did! we seen a couple hundred head of the big bodied, dark migrators (with their tongues hanging out from traveling) move thru a saddle and down thru a big draw,watched em move thru for about an hour til they dissapeared.Not a shot was fired,every one of em was does and yearlings,not a horn in the bunch,not even a spike!  .Heck During the late 50,s(when I myself started hunting that area) thru about the mid 80,s it was nothing to see 100 deer a day, and some milling around in groups of 20 to 30 during rifle season. Those days are long gone I,m afraid and will probably become alot worse.Now its a big deal and a rareity to see 10 in a bunch during the season.....Yes sir, very sad.

[khunter#1]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. Have not been able to access the forum for a couple days, been having computer problems.

[boneaddict]

Good to hear from some folks that have been there and done that and KNOW.   Last spring I saw a whopping 20 deer in that canyon where there used to be 800-1000.   The herd is pitiful compared to the past that I know of it and I am not going back as far as you guys.   Some of the range that used to have 100's of deer only had what you could count on one or TWO hands this last spring.   Quite frankly at these levels, the remaining range might even be enough to sustain the others coming into it.    I wonder if the powers to be are almost excited as this is a great excuse to divert off of their wolf catastrophe.   Now they can blame the horrible fire of 2014 and the winter afterwards for the demise of the herd.   Some of us will know that the hole was already dug and coffin hovereing to be lowered. 

[bigmacc]

Good to hear from some folks that have been there and done that and KNOW.   Last spring I saw a whopping 20 deer in that canyon where there used to be 800-1000.   The herd is pitiful compared to the past that I know of it and I am not going back as far as you guys.   Some of the range that used to have 100's of deer only had what you could count on one or TWO hands this last spring.   Quite frankly at these levels, the remaining range might even be enough to sustain the others coming into it.    I wonder if the powers to be are almost excited as this is a great excuse to divert off of their wolf catastrophe.   Now they can blame the horrible fire of 2014 and the winter afterwards for the demise of the herd.   Some of us will know that the hole was already dug and coffin hovereing to be lowered.

You got it right in the crosshairs bone! .....and sadly your right about the hole already being dug and the longterm plight of this herd

[no.cen.wa]

One thing I wish I had done,,, before this burn, is spend a few days in my old hunting grounds at the end of October and the first of November, that is when our hunting group would hunt before they shortened the season and threw us all into the same week. We would always hunt the last week of the season, and it always ended after October, or first few days of November, heck I remember Veterans day being the day after the season ended and we had an extra day to pack up camp.
I would like to compare the deer now to see how it would compare to the past.
I don't think the wdfw will ever extend seasons again, they got $692,000 in 2013 for Quality deer and Buck deer draw tags alone!, thats just those two, not counting the others and the cost of the license. Maybe they could have a draw tag for Wolves, now I'd try that one!
OK I'll shutup
   John G 

[bigmacc]

One thing I wish I had done,,, before this burn, is spend a few days in my old hunting grounds at the end of October and the first of November, that is when our hunting group would hunt before they shortened the season and threw us all into the same week. We would always hunt the last week of the season, and it always ended after October, or first few days of November, heck I remember Veterans day being the day after the season ended and we had an extra day to pack up camp.
I would like to compare the deer now to see how it would compare to the past.
I don't think the wdfw will ever extend seasons again, they got $692,000 in 2013 for Quality deer and Buck deer draw tags alone!, thats just those two, not counting the others and the cost of the license. Maybe they could have a draw tag for Wolves, now I'd try that one!
OK I'll shutup
   John G

We used to hunt the same time frames you guys hunted,sadly i can tell you this no.cen.wa, i have been over there in some of our old hunting spots the last few years during those time frames you spoke of(end of oct/first of nov) and its not even close to the number of animals you fellas probably used to see. I like your idea on the draw tag idea for wolves,WDFW would probably raise alot of money peddling those things

[huntnphool]

 I too remember those times, counting 300-400 on a hillside in a few different canyons. Funny how there were more hunters back then too and yet I seldom saw more than a handful total in a weeks worth of hunting the hills.

 Some great hunting spots have burned this year, I'm hoping a few more of them are spared.

[runamuk]

It will be interesting to get "in the woods" and see how hot the fire got, 20 years ago there was a small fire at the head of Wolf Canyon, east of Lower Beaver Creek Rd.  it burned so hot that nothing grew for 10-12 years, there wasn't even a stump left where it was hottest. From what I could see from hiway 20 it wasn't that hot, I only hope most of it wasn't that hot.
By the way, although there was no vegetation the deer still moved though, just nothing to stop for!    Time will tell

this concerns me...all the "let it burn its natures way" people do not understand sterilized (incinerated) ground grows nothing no grass no trees no weeds, it essentially is the same as say the blast zone of st helens or ground zero at Hiroshima.  Fire of that magnitude is bad for the environment and bad for wildlife.   I also want to get in and see with my own eyes just how bad it was in some spots. 

[Skyvalhunter]

Very true sterilized ground just doesn't grow vegitation which ultimately leads to the loss of feeding range. I have seen areas that burned in the late 60's where very little is growing

[singleshot12]

Maybe some of these crucial deer areas can be re-planted and seeded.

Aren't the areas that are so incinerated the same areas where the underbrush was too thick? Maybe these areas should of been let naturally burned years ago?

[MuleDeer]

Maybe some of these crucial deer areas can be re-planted and seeded.

Aren't the areas that are so incinerated the same areas where the underbrush was too thick? Maybe these areas should of been let naturally burned years ago?

That's why the Mule Deer Foundation is working in E. WA now more than ever.  We will be re-seeding and/or planting different plugs to re-establish forage in many crucial areas.  If you ever want to help out, let us know and come out and get some boots on the ground with us!
For the burning, we also bought a prescribed burn trailer for WDFW and their "burn boss".  In areas they have done prescribed burns like the Sinlahekin, when fires do pop up, they burn very fast and don't do much damage.  We are currently looking at purchasing another trailer or two for them, to increase the amount of "preventative prescribed burning", to help avoid some of what has happened in Okanogan, Chelan and Kittitas counties over the last few years.  Stay tuned for what else we are up to in Okanogan this fall and winter in helping the deer get through the winter...we're doing our best to provide options that will convince WDFW to drop the proposed extra deer tags.  Hopefully we'll see positive results after this winter!

[bigmacc]

Maybe some of these crucial deer areas can be re-planted and seeded.

Aren't the areas that are so incinerated the same areas where the underbrush was too thick? Maybe these areas should of been let naturally burned years ago?

That's why the Mule Deer Foundation is working in E. WA now more than ever.  We will be re-seeding and/or planting different plugs to re-establish forage in many crucial areas.  If you ever want to help out, let us know and come out and get some boots on the ground with us!
For the burning, we also bought a prescribed burn trailer for WDFW and their "burn boss".  In areas they have done prescribed burns like the Sinlahekin, when fires do pop up, they burn very fast and don't do much damage.  We are currently looking at purchasing another trailer or two for them, to increase the amount of "preventative prescribed burning", to help avoid some of what has happened in Okanogan, Chelan and Kittitas counties over the last few years.  Stay tuned for what else we are up to in Okanogan this fall and winter in helping the deer get through the winter...we're doing our best to provide options that will convince WDFW to drop the proposed extra deer tags.  Hopefully we'll see positive results after this winter!

MuleDeer, glad to hear you guys are on this, sounds like some positive ideas and actions. Ive mentioned in another thread that back in the 40,s 50,s (and 60,s too i think) hunters purchasing a deer tag were given a bag of buckbrush seed to plant while out hunting after fire years and sometimes they gave it out to hunters to just get some new feed growing.  My dad remembers planting lots of seed in the Methow, is this something that could be done to kind of supplement your seeding plans,Its a way to get those xtra "boots on the ground" 

[MuleDeer]

Awesome idea, and something we can look into.  I know it wouldn't be a problem logistically on private ground, but we'd have to see how the agencies would want to handle it on their lands.  I would guess that if the seed was pretty much "bomb proof" in how to plant it, there wouldn't be a reason to worry.  Still lots unknown right now, but the one thing we know for sure is that there needs to be a LOT of seed and plugs planted in the next few years.  Thanks for the suggestion!

[Hilltop123]

Wow, some great thinking, and a walk down memory lane, as far as deer #'s in the Methow. Between predators, people(aka habitat loss), fire and a whole list of issues, all have an impact! 2% here and 3% there, add to diminishing herd #'s. I'm not totally sure, what the ultimate answer is....   

Off soap box..........Just a question, what good does seeding, sterilized soil, do for wildlife? Seed once sprouted, need nutrient, to grow? If the soil is sterilized, then what nutrient is there, for new growth? More than welcomed to be schooled... 

[washelkhunter]

The soil isn't really sterilized. Surface microfauna and bacteria etc were killed but all the nutrients are still there. Actually there's more because of the ash. Seeding should be done for soil stabilization and erosion and grass and shrubs are great for that.

[MtnMuley]

Here's a question: Has anybody heard if the mighty Conservation Northwest has done anything to help in the recovery efforts??

[winshooter88]

Conservation Northwest seems to be more interested in promoting wolves than they are with repairing or enhancing habitat.

[singleshot12]

Maybe some of these crucial deer areas can be re-planted and seeded.

Aren't the areas that are so incinerated the same areas where the underbrush was too thick? Maybe these areas should of been let naturally burned years ago?

That's why the Mule Deer Foundation is working in E. WA now more than ever.  We will be re-seeding and/or planting different plugs to re-establish forage in many crucial areas.  If you ever want to help out, let us know and come out and get some boots on the ground with us!
For the burning, we also bought a prescribed burn trailer for WDFW and their "burn boss".  In areas they have done prescribed burns like the Sinlahekin, when fires do pop up, they burn very fast and don't do much damage.  We are currently looking at purchasing another trailer or two for them, to increase the amount of "preventative prescribed burning", to help avoid some of what has happened in Okanogan, Chelan and Kittitas counties over the last few years.  Stay tuned for what else we are up to in Okanogan this fall and winter in helping the deer get through the winter...we're doing our best to provide options that will convince WDFW to drop the proposed extra deer tags.  Hopefully we'll see positive results after this winter!

Sounds like a great opportunity for the Mule Deer Foundation and volunteers to make a positive difference alright
We'll keep in touch,it would be good to put in some hours,also a good excuse to get over that way more often.

[MuleDeer]

Here's a question: Has anybody heard if the mighty Conservation Northwest has done anything to help in the recovery efforts??

Since you asked, I thought I'd call them and ask.  Right now they are working with the Okanogan Conservation District on logistics and an inventory of what has been lost and what needs to be done, much the same as most agencies are doing right now, until they know where everything stands.
We (the Mule Deer Foundation) do know we will be doing a LOT of planting in the near future, and possibly setting up some feeding station networks around the county, but beyond that, we're not sure either about what else may be needed by this fall.
Not supporting them or shooting them down, just reporting the info that I have found out.

[blindluck]

I too remember those times, counting 300-400 on a hillside in a few different canyons. Funny how there were more hunters back then too and yet I seldom saw more than a handful total in a weeks worth of hunting the hills.

 Some great hunting spots have burned this year, I'm hoping a few more of them are spared.

I cant hardly believe there were more hunters back then as compared to now, It seems these days the woods are crawling with people.

[singleshot12]

I too remember those times, counting 300-400 on a hillside in a few different canyons. Funny how there were more hunters back then too and yet I seldom saw more than a handful total in a weeks worth of hunting the hills.

 Some great hunting spots have burned this year, I'm hoping a few more of them are spared.

I cant hardly believe there were more hunters back then as compared to now, It seems these days the woods are crawling with people.

I think that's because there is less land to hunt. Hunters are concentrated into smaller areas

[MtnMuley]

I too remember those times, counting 300-400 on a hillside in a few different canyons. Funny how there were more hunters back then too and yet I seldom saw more than a handful total in a weeks worth of hunting the hills.

 Some great hunting spots have burned this year, I'm hoping a few more of them are spared.

I cant hardly believe there were more hunters back then as compared to now, It seems these days the woods are crawling with people.

There were far more hunters that were hunting away from their rig back then.  Not saying there were as many hunting from the roads as there is these days though.

[huntnphool]

I too remember those times, counting 300-400 on a hillside in a few different canyons. Funny how there were more hunters back then too and yet I seldom saw more than a handful total in a weeks worth of hunting the hills.

 Some great hunting spots have burned this year, I'm hoping a few more of them are spared.

I cant hardly believe there were more hunters back then as compared to now, It seems these days the woods are crawling with people.

I think that's because there is less land to hunt. Hunters are concentrated into smaller areas

 Actually it's because the season has been condensed down to one week, forcing everyone to take the same time off and swarm the land. We used to be able to hunt a weeks time and see a handful of other hunters in the field during our entire hunt.

 It became exponentially worse after 2004, which is where it's been since. It's about time they considered extending the general season, at least to the 25th.

[bigmacc]

I too remember those times, counting 300-400 on a hillside in a few different canyons. Funny how there were more hunters back then too and yet I seldom saw more than a handful total in a weeks worth of hunting the hills.

 Some great hunting spots have burned this year, I'm hoping a few more of them are spared.

I cant hardly believe there were more hunters back then as compared to now, It seems these days the woods are crawling with people.

I think that's because there is less land to hunt. Hunters are concentrated into smaller areas

 Actually it's because the season has been condensed down to one week, forcing everyone to take the same time off and swarm the land. We used to be able to hunt a weeks time and see a handful of other hunters in the field during our entire hunt.

 It became exponentially worse after 2004, which is where it's been since. It's about time they considered extending the general season, at least to the 25th.

phool is right about more hunters but not seeing them. Seasons were open over there in the 60,s and 70,s i remember for a solid month sometimes and usually 2 to 3 weeks! The people were spread out(time wise),you had some folks who liked to hunt the first week or two and and were into the "experience" and mostly were going after the local deer,the weather was a little better for camping and they enjoyed there time in the field chasing the local herd around. Then the last couple weeks the hardcore guys would come over and the others would be pulling out in there motorhomes or trailors and heading home,the old switch-a-roo i guess . The last couple weeks usually involved the first week of November(latest i remember was going to the 14th in 1965),I was just a kid then but i remember my dad taking me out on some hunts where it was so cold it was beyond misery. I remember everything in our camp froze solid one year in the 70,s eggs,milk,bread,water,you name it it was 8 below and everything was frozen! Anyway the hunters as a whole were plentiful but were spread out over 3 or 4 weeks and everyone had their favorite weeks and spots so you wernt bumping into people,back then you didnt have anyone trying to cork ya or beat you to your favorite spot either,hunters actually respected each other,there last name and the time,sweat,history and pain it took to learn an area. Any buck was a "good buck" and all this stuff about a bucks "score" was something only the "dandy,s" talked about....Then again thats when the Methow herd was 30-40 thousand strong also and not the 10 thousand it is today sadly.....my opinion and  .....Oh and by the way,something has bothered me for awhile,i think a fella by the handle of "doublelung" could of,in a polite way said some people "Think" they see what they "think" are bigger deer than they actually are,or something like that,(refering to the 200 inch buck/400 inch elk thread)I,ll tell ya pardner, YES I have SEEN some big deer that you would love to have the opportunity to shoot in this state and i,m sure youve shot some big deer,and YES I,ve seen some that have been in that "200" range and YES i would bet money on it.  I,m being a little harsh and to the point i,m sure,but you dont know me and you dont know my hunting history or tradition,snide comments basically saying i dont know a big deer when i see it or someone who doesnt know what he,s seeing or doing in the woods while hunting is disrespectfull in my book,P.M me or something but dont call me out that I may be seeing things i dont really see.Been around this "Huntin block" more times than you I,m sure,paid my dues and have put in many years and miles to learn this animal inside and out as well as my ancestors....Sorry to those in power,had to get it off my chest,been bugging me for awhile but had to be said on the forum the way he did to me.....My appoligies.

[no.cen.wa]

I'm with you bigmacc, I, like many have read your post's and could feel the passion and knowledge of mule deer you have, and then you backed it up with many pictures of family and stories spanning decades. I have no doubt you know your deer.
Don't let anyone bother you, you unlike some others, have nothing to prove!
  John G.
 "born downtown Twisp in my Grandfathers house 1948"(no hospital,no doctor too much snow to go to hospital in Brewster)      , I know a big deer when I see it too!