Free: Contests & Raffles.
Quote from: KFhunter on September 18, 2014, 04:11:56 PM no coyotes singing at 3am....and in 4 days I never crossed a single yote track. A lot of people on here tried to say that doesn't happen when wolves move in. Now you see it does. They literally kill and displace the buggers.
no coyotes singing at 3am....and in 4 days I never crossed a single yote track.
Myself and many others have posted the data numerous times proving certain ungulate declines in several specific ungulate herds were caused by wolves, cougars, bear, and/or coyotes in studies documented by state wildlife biologists. It's also true and I don't think anyone disagrees that habitat and hunters play a role in herd numbers, but those are not the only factors, predators have been proven to have varying degrees of impact on herds.Obviously the proven fact that wolves have impacted certain herds does not mean that myself or others think all predation on ungulates is caused by wolves or cougars, or that all declines in herds is caused solely by wolves or cougars. There are certainly many other predators and factors that can impact ungulate herds more or less depending on which area is being discussed. But, there are proven instances where wolves and cougars in particular are the primary factor impacting herds or keeping herds from rebounding, why not just admit that fact rather than try to twist the facts as if wolves and cougars never have an impact?I find it disheartening that fellow hunters would argue that that these impacts do not occur when they know full well and have seen the evidence that wolves and cougars can be a major impact on herds. Who is really feeding the other side what they need to try and stop hunting of predators?
Quote from: AspenBud on September 18, 2014, 04:31:11 PMQuote from: KFhunter on September 18, 2014, 04:11:56 PM no coyotes singing at 3am....and in 4 days I never crossed a single yote track. A lot of people on here tried to say that doesn't happen when wolves move in. Now you see it does. They literally kill and displace the buggers.The same is true of pet dogs, hunting dogs, and herd dogs, the wolves literally try to kill them!
I live in the middle of wolf country, the wedge, where it all started for WA - ground zero if you will. Every time I go out I see wolf sign in my old hunting areas and effects of wolves on the landscape, I see carcasses all the time. this is not new for me. I went Elk hunting last week in an area I knew had wolves, normally I'd avoid those areas but now I figure I can't get away from them, they're everywhere...but even I was shocked at the almost total desertion of large game. Dale has been saying it all along, but until you witness devastation with your own eyes you won't get it. Yes there was still some Elk there, but the herds were tiny and constantly moving. I wasn't able to find a herd that was holed up for even a day or two. I should have seen or heard of some success from other Elk hunters but no..I seen no dead heads, no horns in the back of trucks, no gut piles or ravens, no coyotes singing at 3am....and in 4 days I never crossed a single yote track. I tried to get on here and share my experience, but I was instead mocked. I'm not a piss poor hunter, I'm not a moron, nor a politician. I'm not sad or pathetic, I'm not a lousy hunter nor don't know chit about Elk.
Quote from: KFhunter on September 18, 2014, 04:11:56 PMI live in the middle of wolf country, the wedge, where it all started for WA - ground zero if you will. Every time I go out I see wolf sign in my old hunting areas and effects of wolves on the landscape, I see carcasses all the time. this is not new for me. I went Elk hunting last week in an area I knew had wolves, normally I'd avoid those areas but now I figure I can't get away from them, they're everywhere...but even I was shocked at the almost total desertion of large game. Dale has been saying it all along, but until you witness devastation with your own eyes you won't get it. Yes there was still some Elk there, but the herds were tiny and constantly moving. I wasn't able to find a herd that was holed up for even a day or two. I should have seen or heard of some success from other Elk hunters but no..I seen no dead heads, no horns in the back of trucks, no gut piles or ravens, no coyotes singing at 3am....and in 4 days I never crossed a single yote track. I tried to get on here and share my experience, but I was instead mocked. I'm not a piss poor hunter, I'm not a moron, nor a politician. I'm not sad or pathetic, I'm not a lousy hunter nor don't know chit about Elk. this is what I'm seeing too. I don't live as far north as kf but 90% of my hunting is north of me. Many of the carcasses' have busted off or crushed nose. Some are not hardly eaten but mostly buried and rotten. My fav hunting spot is few miles away its few square miles that I normally grid work several days a week(seasonal worker) from Dec 15th to end of march I found 11 such kills on this property alone
I think we can all take away from this thread that broad generalizations about the factors that influence deer/elk abundance are very difficult to defend. Predators- cougars, wolves, etc. definitely can have an impact on the abundance of deer and elk...and those impacts can range from negligible to severe. Add in other mortality factors and even the moderate predation can be devastating. As I mentioned earlier, I believe more often predation gets the attention while habitat issues are the silent killer. But that should not be taken to mean that predators don't or will not have potentially severe impacts. My perspective is there is actually a whole lot more common ground than disagreement than comes across in these threads. Naturally it is the microscopic focus on disagreements that results in more posts/debate and so it skews just how much of the big picture we all can probably agree on.
If half the MT hunters unhappy about wolves went out and bought and filled a tag, there wouldn't be any "problem" in Montana - or any other state that has legal wolf hunting. Heck, if 10% of the hunters went after wolves one or two days a year the picture would be much different. Even as a non-resident, I can pick up a MT tag for $50 OTC (5/year) and hunt pretty much anywhere - not to mention ranchers who would probably welcome the help. I know a bunch of MT hunters and have yet to meet one that ever even bought a tag.Washington will be the same way I bet, wolves reproduce, get unlisted and then hardly anyone hunts them. It's always easier to complain than it is to do something productive.
You guys are spitting into the wind. Those people who so dearly love their wolves won't admit there's a problem even when the ungulates are gone and they have lost their outdoors opportunities. We lost this battle to environmental extremists three years ago with the help of a stacked wildlife commission with a watchable wildlife mentality. The WDFW will self-destruct as the people who support it (the hunters and fishers) go away and find their opportunities elsewhere. We have a very sad state of affairs in WA and it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it ever does.
We can go back and forth all day long about the predation on the game herds, the one thing that points at the wolves is history. Before wolves the game herds could keep up if tags etc. were limited in areas for a year or two, that had a bad winter. The introduction of the Canadian wolves tip the scale on predation of ungulates and livestock. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise, either doesn't have a clue or they like playing head games.
I think we can all take away from this thread that broad generalizations about the factors that influence deer/elk abundance are very difficult to defend.
