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Author Topic: Wash. reports new wolf pack found  (Read 67216 times)

Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2014, 02:24:02 PM »
Probably over 1K
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Offline Bob33

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2014, 02:30:30 PM »
Even a fairly poor hunter could see that wolves have taken a large number of Elk off the hunting grounds and removed almost all traces of deer.   
Serious question: how do you know it is wolves that removed almost all traces of deer, versus some other factor?
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2014, 02:33:31 PM »
To be fair, I was complaining about Elk prior to wolves.  WDFW is consistent in their mismanagement of Elk,  so when wolves did come I went in full freak out mode. 

I hunted some of my old haunts recently and the change from this last 5 years to now was drastic, even a fairly poor hunter could see that wolves have taken a large number of Elk off the hunting grounds and removed almost all traces of deer.   Not trying to rationalize my continued failure, but it would be nice to have a decent population of Elk to fling an arrow at.
Consider moving areas if harvest is that important to you.  I know folks who hunt less productive areas because thats just where they hunt and the thought of going elsewhere is blasphemy.  But if harvest is really important to you, mobility is your friend.

We have half the land mass and 16 times the population density of MT, a state who's having severe problems with wolves and their ungulate populations.
   
Severe?  A good chunk of the state doesn't even have wolves.  Again, your logic does not appear to be grounded in facts.  Some hunts right around yellowstone have taken a hit, but to suggest Montana is suffering from "severe" effects of wolves (and this again places all blame on wolves for any declines!) does not seem to match reality.

They are quite an interesting critter and I have been somewhat fascinated by them for a long time.   That being said, I don't like them being rammed down my throat.   Mismanagement of them or any other major predator is just plain (Bleep)
I think Stein put it most eloquently..."I'm not the only person in the state"...compromise is something we need to learn to live with when it comes to wolf management in WA state.  While some feel 15 bps for delisting is "ramming wolves down their throat", others may feel 15 bp's is woefully inadequate.  Given we are the minority I think it behooves hunters to seek compromise...surely we do not want to go down the ballot box management path!
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2014, 02:38:52 PM »
Another shocking and surprising reply.  :rolleyes: My numbers are all accurate. You're the one not grounded in reality. I know you refuse to see anything but the beauty of just as many wolves as we can fit in the state. That doesn't make it right or responsible.
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Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2014, 02:47:21 PM »
Even a fairly poor hunter could see that wolves have taken a large number of Elk off the hunting grounds and removed almost all traces of deer.   
Serious question: how do you know it is wolves that removed almost all traces of deer, versus some other factor?

It's an assumption based upon the biggest factor to change in that area, the influx of wolves;  an educated guess; but since there's no proof other than my personal observations it's easily discredited in of itself.  It's when many voices all echo the same thing that one must take notice.  It's so easy for a wolf advocate to pick apart different hunter's observations, and that's why they're here....to discredit us and keep us bickering. 


rule #1
Don't allow hunters to share a common voice calling for increased wolf management.  Pick apart their observations and personal experiences, call them a poor hunter and belittle them when they're unsuccessful..
don't allow them to blame wolves.

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2014, 02:50:15 PM »
Another shocking and surprising reply.  :rolleyes: My numbers are all accurate. You're the one not grounded in reality. I know you refuse to see anything but the beauty of just as many wolves as we can fit in the state. That doesn't make it right or responsible.
Again, please provide the supporting information that Montana is experiencing severe effects to ungulates because of wolves.  I suspect Montana is similar to Idaho and Wyoming...overall, hunting is pretty good.  A few areas have been impacted, but lots of really great opportunity.  Perhaps you are aware of some facts I am not, but you have not provided them.

I have no "desires" for wolves in Wa state.  I just have not seen the evidence that they cause the kind of destruction you and others suggest.   
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline Bob33

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #126 on: September 18, 2014, 02:51:14 PM »
Even a fairly poor hunter could see that wolves have taken a large number of Elk off the hunting grounds and removed almost all traces of deer.   
Serious question: how do you know it is wolves that removed almost all traces of deer, versus some other factor?

It's an assumption based upon the biggest factor to change in that area, the influx of wolves;  an educated guess; but since there's no proof other than my personal observations it's easily discredited in of itself.  It's when many voices all echo the same thing that one must take notice.  It's so easy for a wolf advocate to pick apart different hunter's observations, and that's why they're here....to discredit us and keep us bickering. 


rule #1
Don't allow hunters to share a common voice calling for increased wolf management.  Pick apart their observations and personal experiences, call them a poor hunter and belittle them when they're unsuccessful..
don't allow them to blame wolves.
OK. Thank you. There are many factors at play. Certainly predators are significant. Here's an interesting article on the decline of mule deer in most western states:

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/studies-states-seek-to-halt-mule-deer-population-decline/article_e7b84102-3737-11e3-9830-0019bb2963f4.html

Wildlife management agencies, hunters and wildlife organizations have done a lot of research, habitat work and plain old head scratching in recent years over what is causing a decline in the number of mule deer across parts of the West.

A recent report by Western wildlife agencies found mule deer declining in four states, including Wyoming, and one Canadian province. Montana’s population was reported as stable, although certain regional populations have seen some dramatic declines.

“Certainly numbers are still down,” said Quentin Kujala, Fish, Wildlife and Parks wildlife management section chief, but whether that constitutes a downward trend or simply a temporary pause he could not say.

“It’s varied across the state, for sure,” he added.

A FWP report to the Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies in July noted “significant declines in recruitment and observed numbers of mule deer during 2007-11.”

The report goes on to note the regional differences in mule deer populations.

“Surveys during 2012-13 revealed improved recruitment and stable numbers in central and eastern Montana. Western Montana mule deer populations continue to perform poorly. Recent, significant declines in eastern Montana mule deer populations were associated with inclement winter/spring weather and drought.”

Down in Wyoming

Wyoming, on the other hand, is reporting a steadily decreasing population of mule deer.

In its report to WAFWA, Wyoming noted that the decline was evident as early as the late 1980s, when fawn production began to decline, blamed on “decreasing habitat availability and/or quality.”

The report goes on to note that, “Over the past 30 years, fawn productivity, on average, has decreased statewide by about 20 percent and has been below 65 (fawns per 100 does) 12 times.”

That number is significant since any time the numbers hit 65 or lower there will be a decline in populations, said Darryl Lutz, Lander Region wildlife coordinator for the Wyoming Game and Fish Department. That’s been the case in the Cowboy State.

“Throughout Wyoming, mule deer populations have declined by an estimated 168,000 (31 percent) since 2000. After the 2011 hunting seasons, it was estimated there were 376,000 mule deer in the state. This is 24 percent below the statewide objective of 564,650 mule deer,” Wyoming’s WAFWA report stated.

Lutz said that in 1989 Wyoming saw fawn production start to drop off significantly. That corresponded with the beginning of an extended drought.

Other states that reported declines include North Dakota, Colorado, New Mexico and the province of Saskatchewan. In Colorado the decline of mule deer was great enough that the deer hunting opportunities dropped by 94 percent over five years for the state’s largest mule deer herd.

Mule deer habitat

One theory behind the animals’ decline is a loss of habitat, or changes to existing habitat.

Mule deer are ruminants, animals with multi-chambered stomachs that help them break down the often fibrous plants they eat, which includes the tips of shrubs like bitterbrush and sagebrush.

The mule deer’s range across the West, as in Montana, varies from high in the Rocky Mountains to rugged prairies like the Missouri River Breaks. One thing all of the various mule deer habitats have in common is their reliance on timely moisture to produce nutritious forage. So drought – which commonly and sometimes seriously strikes the West – can deplete mule deer populations.

Demonstrating the importance of quality nutrition, one study found that “well-nourished does lost only about 5 percent of their fawns; does fed deficient diets during the winter lost about 33 percent; and does underfed throughout their pregnancy lost 90 percent of their fawns.”

Lutz, from Wyoming Game and Fish, said his agency once believed that winter habitat was the most important factor in ensuring the deer’s survival. In recent years, that switched to a greater focus on the habitat deer use in the late summer and fall. “This is a common theme across areas of the West,” Lutz said.

If deer aren’t going into the winter well fed, it doesn’t matter if the winter range is in good shape or not. Deer in poor condition won’t survive, or a pregnant doe’s fawn has less chance of surviving.

Altering habitat on a large enough scale to affect mule deer populations isn’t easy or cheap, though, Lutz pointed out.

“It takes a lot of money to do it on a scale large enough to make a difference,” he said.

Still, the department is partnering on a project near Saratoga, Wyo., called the Platte Valley Habitat Partnership, to see if large-scale landscape improvements can have a positive effect on mule deer population trends.

“We’re refocusing our attention,” Lutz said. “I don’t think we yet understand how much effect drought has on habitat.”

Other factors

Although drought may be a major player in the decline of mule deer, there is a laundry list of other occurrences affecting mule deer habitats, including weed infestations by nonnatives, especially species like cheatgrass that can spread rapidly following fires. Fire, too, has the ability to reshape habitats – sometimes for the good, by removing old overstory and promoting new growth, and sometimes for the bad, by ridding the landscape of cover vital to fawn survival.

Some studies suggest that the increase in logging during America’s building boom, settlement of the West and the mining boom, may have opened up the forest floor to species more palatable to mule deer in the early 1900s, promoting what some have termed the golden era of mule deer.

Longtime Wyoming hunter Mike Eastman, who has written two books on mule deer, said the lack of hunting during World War II also helped mule deer populations blossom in that era. He puts part of the blame for the population decline on liberal hunting seasons following World War II.

“They treated them like buffalo and killed them all off,” Eastman said. “By the 1970s, they were all gone and they went, ‘Oops.’ They’ll never be like that again.”

Eastman blames the lack of predator control, suppression of fire and the encroachment of development on deer habitat as the top three reasons for the declining mule deer populations.

One curiosity is that mule deer have thrived in some urban environments, such as in the Montana towns of Colstrip, Glendive and Helena, prompting special hunts or outright trapping and removal. Are mule deer numbers in towns swelling because of the well-watered forage provided by homeowners, or maybe because of a lack of traditional predators like coyotes, or both?

Competitors

Other possible suspects in the decline of mule deer are competitors for the same resources — animals like elk, whose numbers have climbed in many regions of Montana, as well as cattle.

There is often a big decline from the number of fawns born to those living at a year old, and predators such as coyotes, bears and lions are often blamed for limiting mule deer population rebounds. Utah has even gone so far as to pay a $50 bounty for coyote pelts as a way to reduce their numbers.

But studies have shown that reducing the numbers of predators isn’t always effective. One study suggested that if mule deer numbers are strong, then predators will simply fill the void if a resident predator is shot, since the food source is so bountiful, creating a constant in-migration.

A Montana study showed that coyotes, if they have other food sources such as small mammals, may not be a problem even when abundant. And research in Nevada showed that even when predator control was at a high in the 1960s, game harvest was better in 1996 and 2000 when many of the old means of killing coyotes, such as with poisons, were no longer used.

Despite many studies, it seems there is still a lot of uncertainty about how to reverse the decline of a species that many consider a Western icon. The only thing that is certain is that there are no easy answers.

“It’s complex,” said Lutz, of Wyoming Game and Fish. “The things that are impacting mule deer are numerous.”
Nature. It's cheaper than therapy.

Offline bobcat

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #127 on: September 18, 2014, 02:54:15 PM »
 
Quote
It's so easy for a wolf advocate to pick apart different hunter's observations, and that's why they're here....to discredit us and keep us bickering. 

That's why they're "here?" As in on this forum? Really? I haven't noticed any wolf advocates posting. Maybe they're only lurking?  :dunno:

Where did you get that "rule #1"?

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #128 on: September 18, 2014, 03:01:51 PM »
Even a fairly poor hunter could see that wolves have taken a large number of Elk off the hunting grounds and removed almost all traces of deer.   
Serious question: how do you know it is wolves that removed almost all traces of deer, versus some other factor?

It's an assumption based upon the biggest factor to change in that area, the influx of wolves;  an educated guess; but since there's no proof other than my personal observations it's easily discredited in of itself. It's when many voices all echo the same thing that one must take notice. It's so easy for a wolf advocate to pick apart different hunter's observations, and that's why they're here....to discredit us and keep us bickering. 


rule #1
Don't allow hunters to share a common voice calling for increased wolf management.  Pick apart their observations and personal experiences, call them a poor hunter and belittle them when they're unsuccessful..
don't allow them to blame wolves.
Is your observation that there is not a trace of a deer in NE Wa...or just some very specific tree stand location/ridge top etc.?  One I would believe...and is easily explained by any number of factors ranging from hunter pressure to weather to a cougar strolling by that morning...the other would be very difficult to swallow.

Who are the wolf advocates and where are they discrediting hunters?  Is Bob Ferris back on the forum somewhere? 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline pianoman9701

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Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #130 on: September 18, 2014, 03:19:50 PM »
Piano-Your link very much supports what I was telling you...and is a far cry from "severe" effects on ungulates.  The first few quotes from your article:

"Not surprisingly (to me anyway) the effect of wolves on elk populations varies by area and presence of other predators such as grizzly bears. In addition hunters affect elk more than wolves. When considering wolves and ungulates alone, I take this report to be generally quite positive for the effects of wolves on ungulates."

“One-size-fits-all explanations of wolf-elk interactions across large landscapes do not seem to exist,” said Justin Gude, FWP’s chief of wildlife research in Helena.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline idahohuntr

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #131 on: September 18, 2014, 03:27:39 PM »
Another quote from Piano's article that gets at KF's issue a little bit...especially given NW Montana and NE Wa are not all that far apart.

In most of northwestern Montana, it’s probable that white-tailed deer are the major prey of wolves, yet the recent decline in deer numbers there is most likely due to poor fawn survival and recruitment during the recent spate of severe winters-in combination with high antlerless harvests by hunters and wolf-predation rates.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Offline KFhunter

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #132 on: September 18, 2014, 04:11:56 PM »
I live in the middle of wolf country,  the wedge,  where it all started for WA - ground zero if you will.

Every time I go out I see wolf sign in my old hunting areas and effects of wolves on the landscape,  I see carcasses all the time. 



this is not new for me.


I went Elk hunting last week in an area I knew had wolves, normally I'd avoid those areas but now I figure I can't get away from them, they're everywhere...but even I was shocked at the almost total desertion of large game.   Dale has been saying it all along, but until you witness devastation with your own eyes you won't get it.

Yes there was still some Elk there, but the herds were tiny and constantly moving.  I wasn't able to find a herd that was holed up for even a day or two.  I should have seen or heard of some success from other Elk hunters but no..I seen no dead heads, no horns in the back of trucks, no gut piles or ravens, no coyotes singing at 3am....and in 4 days I never crossed a single yote track.

I tried to get on here and share my experience, but I was instead mocked.

I'm not a piss poor hunter, I'm not a moron, nor a politician.  I'm not sad or pathetic, I'm not a lousy hunter nor don't know chit about Elk.









Offline bearpaw

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #133 on: September 18, 2014, 04:29:16 PM »
Myself and many others have posted the data numerous times proving certain ungulate declines in several specific ungulate herds were caused by wolves, cougars, bear, and/or coyotes in studies documented by state wildlife biologists. It's also true and I don't think anyone disagrees that habitat and hunters play a role in herd numbers, but those are not the only factors, predators have been proven to have varying degrees of impact on herds.

Obviously the proven fact that wolves have impacted certain herds does not mean that myself or others think all predation on ungulates is caused by wolves or cougars, or that all declines in herds is caused solely by wolves or cougars. There are certainly many other predators and factors that can impact ungulate herds more or less depending on which area is being discussed. But, there are proven instances where wolves and cougars in particular are the primary factor impacting herds or keeping herds from rebounding, why not just admit that fact rather than try to twist the facts as if wolves and cougars never have an impact?

I find it disheartening that fellow hunters would argue that that these impacts do not occur when they know full well and have seen the evidence that wolves and cougars can be a major impact on herds. Who is really feeding the other side what they need to try and stop hunting of predators?  :twocents:
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Offline AspenBud

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Re: Wash. reports new wolf pack found
« Reply #134 on: September 18, 2014, 04:31:11 PM »
no coyotes singing at 3am....and in 4 days I never crossed a single yote track.

A lot of people on here tried to say that doesn't happen when wolves move in. Now you see it does. They literally kill and displace the buggers.

 


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