Arrow ?s

[Florida_Native]

So I'm new to. Bow hunting and I see a lt of different arrows for a lot of money. I started with easton 1117s I think. I didn't like the aluminum ones because out of 6 I only have 2 left. They kept bending. Because of this I like carbon better. I found some at walmart for $3 a piece. But why are some so much more expensive and are they worth it? If so why? Are they more accurate or durable?

Thanks!

[Jonathan_S]

Carbon doesn't bend.  It stays straight or it shatters   

Be careful of which spine you are buying.

[Peskadot]

http://bestcompoundbowsource.com/choose-arrows-compound-bow/

[Seahawk12]

I guess people don't want to talk much about arrows.
When I started hunting bow the Easton aluminum arrow was on the cutting edge of technology. I still have a dozen or more Easton Fall Stalker 2117s kicking around. They are still great arrows. If you use them for a while you will tend to bend them less and less. The majority of the arrows I bent while target shooting were due to me pulling them out incorrectly.
My understanding of carbon arrows is probably not very great compared to a lot of the guys around here, but some of the pros to carbon are that there is less wind drift, the shoot flatter, they don't bend (or almost never), smaller diameter shafts which increase penetration (I wrote that with a straight face), and FOC is easier to manipulate with accessories.
The downsides are higher costs, they will shed velocity on longer shots (doesn't matter for typical hunt shot distances), and the danger that a damaged arrow that is shot could shatter and/or explode. I saw some pictures on here a while back that were pretty gruesome.

Here's another site with info on arrows: http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_1.htm

[h20hunter]

This is an easy one. Describe your complete set up, then, just do what RadSav tells you to do.

[Crunchy]

Or give us a budget on a dozen.  You will probably be better off just going to  a proshop so whatever you buy can be cut to length and inserts hlued in. 

[Florida_Native]

Thanks for the info.  The more I shoot the more I like the carbon. I have only broken one and that is because I shot it with another arrow.  The ones I bought are cheap but still pretty accurate. So I,m guessing the on,y thing gained by the more expensive ones is durability. I haven't broken these by hitting rocks or frozen ground like the aluminum. Based on this the only other gain I can think of is possibly that they don't loose speed as much?

At this point I guess I'll stick with the cheap walmart carbons.

I'm a cheapo so don't be surprised if I ask questions like this again

[wog]

This is an easy one. Describe your complete set up, then, just do what RadSav tells you to do.

[lokidog]

Thanks for the info.  The more I shoot the more I like the carbon. I have only broken one and that is because I shot it with another arrow.  The ones I bought are cheap but still pretty accurate. So I,m guessing the on,y thing gained by the more expensive ones is durability. I haven't broken these by hitting rocks or frozen ground like the aluminum. Based on this the only other gain I can think of is possibly that they don't loose speed as much?

At this point I guess I'll stick with the cheap walmart carbons.

I'm a cheapo so don't be surprised if I ask questions like this again

The main thing is that you need to match the spine of your arrow to your draw weight, broadhead weight, and arrow length/weight.  If your spine is too soft for your set-up, the arrow will flex too much and you will lose accuracy.

Radsav is a good source as is ToddID, Todd has some good software to show what arrows will work well with your set up.  You might want to send him a PM.

If the WalMart arrows are working well for you, just keep with them.  Have you tried any paper tuning?

[Florida_Native]

Not sure what you mean by paper tuning.

[lokidog]

www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/tuning-guide

www.fieldandstream.com/.../15-steps-perfect-arrow-flight

You shoot an arrow through a piece of paper at ten feet or so and see how it rips the paper.  It should look like a straight on arrow hole, if it rips up, down, or sideways, the bow is not "tuned" properly.  If it is out of tune, you can still get good target tip arrow groupings, but often your broadheads will impact at a different point.  There are a lot of youtube videos as well.  Do a google search for paper tuning, you could also go to a local archery shop and they will usually have a setup to check your tuning and be able to help you out.

Hope this helps.

[RadSav]

The ones I bought are cheap but still pretty accurate. So I,m guessing the on,y thing gained by the more expensive ones is durability. I haven't broken these by hitting rocks or frozen ground like the aluminum.

At this point I guess I'll stick with the cheap walmart carbons.

I'm a cheapo so don't be surprised if I ask questions like this again

Carbon Arrows are amazing tools.  Aluminum has some benefits as well!  The really neat thing about carbon is it's forgiveness to spline variations and straightness variations.  Aluminum come MUCH straighter, Much more consistent in spline and spine, Much more stable as weight to axis distance is greater and weight consistency is absolutely impossible to match with all carbon.  But try to shoot an aluminum arrow that is as out of whack as your cheap carbons and accuracy is uncontrollable while your cheap carbons end up quite impressive.  It almost defies the laws of physics!!

I do not worry much about guys buying cheap arrows as they learn the fundamentals of shooting.  And as long as you continue to improve there is little reason to change and spend the big dollars on premium arrows.  But once you reach a plateau in your progression it often times is the limitation of your arrow that keeps you from taking accuracy to that next level.  It is then that you will want to step up and investigate what a true premium arrow can give you.  Only then can you fully appreciate the true craftsmanship and technology available in the high end premium arrows of today!

Surprisingly, many of your high end tournament quality arrows are NOT more durable than cheap arrow shafts.  High end fibers while straighter, finer and more uniform are also more pure carbon.  And that mean they are often more brittle.  Take my Carbon Express Maxima shafts.  They are more expensive than the same manufacturers cheaper Pile Driver and Mayhem shafts.  But the Pile Driver and Mayhem will take much more abuse.  They may not have as many shots in them before spine breakdown, but in the field they usually will last longer.  Once you get to that point where you rarely miss...you find durability is much less important than it was when you first learned the craft.

[stuckalot]

Rad, hope significant is spine loss, and over what amount of shots/time? Say an Easton Axis?

[RadSav]

The one difference you will notice, regardless of experience level, is the improvement of a properly fletched and balanced arrow.  That is where a WalMart factory fletched shaft and an equivalent shaft fletched at your local archery shop will show a big difference.  Shaft to Shaft the local Pro-Shop arrow will usually stabilize your broadheads much better than those purchased for a just a few dollars less at Wally World.  Plus you will be supporting your local entrepreneurs at the same time

[RadSav]

Rad, hope significant is spine loss, and over what amount of shots/time? Say an Easton Axis?

The average recreational shooter will probably never get enough shots out of an Axis to see a breakdown in spine.  Most will lose them, break them or move on to a straighter more consistent arrow before spine begins to weaken to a point of changing POI.  While the Axis is one of the worst arrows for straightness, spine consistency and uniformity it is also one of the toughest arrows to break down due to the material and construction.  If you are shooting the Axis I would not worry about that at all!

[Seahawk12]

As long as we are on the subject of arrows and comparisons, I would like to know if any of you like the Alloy/Carbon Hunting Arrows and/or the Full Metal Jacket Hunting Arrows? I was reading about them on Eastons site the other day, but I can't remember even seeing them for sell in a store before.
If this is too out of line with the OPs subject line I can create a new thread.

[RadSav]

As long as we are on the subject of arrows and comparisons, I would like to know if any of you like the Alloy/Carbon Hunting Arrows and/or the Full Metal Jacket Hunting Arrows? I was reading about them on Eastons site the other day, but I can't remember even seeing them for sell in a store before.
If this is too out of line with the OPs subject line I can create a new thread.

Great arrows!  Of the two I prefer the A/C/C Pro Hunter, but I do keep both on hand at all times.  I'm not the biggest fan of Easton carbon shafts.  However the Aluminum/Carbon arrows are a masterpiece.  They are expensive and a little heavy for many things, but they are easy to make WA legal and worth every penny IMO!  I love the fact that I do not need to align the spline prior to fletching to get the best results...just clean and fletch.  That's it

The Easton X nock is outstanding.  My goal this year is to make Uni-Bushings for all my Carbon Express arrows so I can use the X-Nock in my "All Carbon" arrows too!

[Florida_Native]

Ok so I did a lot of research today and thought I had the arrows I needed based on spine, grains, draw length and weight. But then I find out I need more weight because of washington regulation.

So my question is does any of this matter in Washington. Can I have the best arrow for my setup? If so where can I find this. I would support a local shop but feel as though this will not be price sensative. I really can't justify a $90 set of arrows.

[RadSav]

Ok so I did a lot of research today and thought I had the arrows I needed based on spine, grains, draw length and weight. But then I find out I need more weight because of washington regulation.

So my question is does any of this matter in Washington. Can I have the best arrow for my setup? If so where can I find this. I would support a local shop but feel as though this will not be price sensative. I really can't justify a $90 set of arrows.

What quantity are you thinking when you say "set of arrows"?  Getting a dozen high grade arrows for under $90 these days is dang near impossible.  I'm usually way north of $100 and I pay wholesale prices!

A lot of arrow choice comes down to honest assessment of your effective shooting range.  For an average shooter with a maximum effective shooting range of 40 or 50 yards...quality of arrow really doesn't mean too much.  An average bowhunter shooting under 40 yards will probably never exceed the limits of a Beman ICS or an Easton Epic.  And it is not impossible to get a dozen bargain shafts that match with great consistency.

For years the wife was shooting Beman ICS shafts.  I would buy three dozen at a time and sort by spine, weight and straightness.  Some years the three dozen would produce a single good dozen arrows.  Other years the three dozen would produce maybe 30 grade "A" matched shafts.  Only Easton A/C/C and Carbon Express have exceeded 30 Grade "A" shafts in a three dozen batch for me!

Also, if we fletch a single fletching color and rotate nocks for groups we can usually get grade "B & C" arrows to group the same as "A" shafts with a fair amount of consistency.  Tossing very few of those three dozen into the kiddies bucket at the local range.

Guys like John Huevel who correct my range targets by letting me know my 110 yard target is actually 110.5 yards can definitely tell the difference between a low tolerance arrow and a premium target class arrow.  But, there are very few John Huevel's in this world!  Most of us mere mortals will never notice the difference between a Beman ICS and an X10.  The honest assessment is, we just aren't that good!!!

Think of arrows like cars.  We all know the E-Class Mercedes is a sexier and higher performance car than our Kia Forte or Optima.  But few of us could ever push the Mercedes to it's potential with WA roads and speed limits.  Plus that Kia still gets us where we want to go on time and with great reliability.  We just might not pick up the chicks or look as cool in the Safeway parking lot 

This doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to have the very best set of matched arrows we can afford.  But it doesn't mean our light wallet can't afford exactly what we need either.


So much of what makes a great hunting arrow is in FOC and shaft rotation.  For the majority of all carbon shafts that means good properly offset fletching more than shaft construction.  Unfortunately mass produced bargain arrows rarely have good offset fletching.  That is where the hand fletched arrows of a good pro-shop really make the higher price worth the added expense.  I would rather shoot a properly fletched Easton Epic (a shaft I despise!!!) than to shoot an A/C/C or Carbon Express Maxima with straight fletched garbage fletching.  Good pro-shop fletched shafts, even of the bargain brand/model, are worth every penny over machine fletched shafts of the same quality.  And of course you could always invest in a fletching jig and fletch your own.  In a couple years that will probably save you more money than buying mass produced bargains.

[scottcrb]

hey radsav when is that fletching seminar your teaching?

[RadSav]

hey radsav when is that fletching seminar your teaching?

Buy a good jig, buy some good glue, buy some good fletching, buy some good lacquer thinner.  Clean shaft, let dry, put fletching in jig, apply glue to fletching, place clamp on arrow, wait 10-15 minutes, remove clamp and repeat.  It's that easy!  Who needs a seminar for that?

[Florida_Native]

First of all thanks for the info Radsav and everyone else!

I read exactly what your saying. That most shooters will never notice the difference in straightness. The article specifically listed plus or minus 3 to plus or minus 1. It didn't say anything about deflection and so I assumed that one would notice the difference in an arrow that deflects properly based on draw weight and arrow length.

Now here is where I am also doing some assuming Washington has the 6 grains per pound minimum and most arrows I saw didn't meet this. I assume that diameter affects deflection and thus weight/grains. Therefore with the gain minimum I will never have the best arrow for my setup. Please correct my inaccuracies.

In all of this I am seeing the benefits of a proshop but would still like to educate myself. Also where does one find arrows that meet the minimum weight for Washington? I would like to do some online paroosing before I buy.

[RadSav]

Don't forget that Washington minimum weight is inclusive of your insert, point, nock and fletching weight.  And it is best to eliminate "Speed" as a motivating factor in deciding what is best.  If you follow only speed you'll likely end up down one dark rabbit hole with no solution for getting out.

There was a study done years ago with aluminum shafts that stated even the most finely tuned bow could not shoot a .001 straightness arrow better than a .005" straightness arrow.  If that was truly the case with aluminum it is most certainly the case with carbon.  But, spline and uniformity of spine does make a difference at longer ranges and that is what separates a good arrow from a great arrow.  Doesn't really matter what material or weight as long as uniformity fits the expectation.

Wall thickness and weight have very little to do with the accuracy of an arrow.  So I am having some difficulty in your reasoning that you can not find the best arrow for your setup in Washington.  A properly spined A/C/C or Mayhem would certainly meet Washington's 6 grain rule with even close to average draw length.  And few arrows on todays market will come close to their performance and accuracy. So I guess I am looking for clarification as to what "best for my setup" means to you.

Wall thickness is just one of the many ways to effect weight of an arrow.  Quality of materials (carbon purity), various resins and diameter have as much if not more to do with weight.  Spine is a formula of two different stretch and compression factors; One consisting of the O.D. and the other consisting of the wall thickness.  In essence a small diameter shaft must have an increased wall thickness to reach the same spine as a large diameter thin walled shaft.  Material has the least effect in regards to static spine, but can be a more motivating factor in regards to dynamic spine.  Thus the reason a 340 spine aluminum arrow is not rated for as high a poundage bow as a 340 spine carbon arrow is.

Some times we get caught up in the notion that we can buy success when the reality is to the contrary.  In the end it is nothing more than a stick and a string that shoots another stick.  Matched properly they are amazing tools of great accuracy.  But it is our own personal ability to master control of the stick that ultimately decides our fate.

[xXLojackXx]

Go talk to the fellas at Spokane Valley Archery and they'll take care of you and be able to match a good arrow to your set up.

[BULLBLASTER]

Go talk to the fellas at Spokane Valley Archery and they'll take care of you and be able to match a good arrow to your set up.

this is great advice if you want to be belittled and treated like trash! I will never ever step foot inside that place, nor will they get a dime of mine due to experiences the times i have tried to go there for help and buy items.
I live 5 minutes from there and still drive almost an hour to a shop that treats customers well.

Maybe you will have a different experience than me and i hope you do if you go there.

The advice of going to a shop to get correctly set up arrows is spot on tho!

[RadSav]

I never hear much about Spokane Valley so I have nothing to say one way or the other.  But, Whitetail Plus shouldn't be too far away.  We hear a lot of compliments about them!  At least gives you a second option

[Florida_Native]

Best for my setup you could throw out the window. Essentially I want the info to do a cost benefit analasys. If I get get a $50 set up that Ill never be able to out perform then why by the $90 set up that Ill also never be able to outperform. Also want to make sure I'm legal.

Also good to know my logic was flawed.  Would you mind if I Pm'd you Radsav for your input on a setup I put together.  I'd like to understand this stuff.

[Florida_Native]

I did stop by spokane Valley archery. They picked up pretty quickly I was a beginner but I didn't feel talked down to. One guy helped me fix the draw length that was set up correctly  and sight in my bow. Only charged $10.

I've also heard bad things but thought I tell my experience. They are pricey though.

[RadSav]

PM away!  That's one of the reasons I frequent this site.

If the fletching is assembled the same on the $50 arrows as it is on the $90 dollar arrows I expect you should be just fine with the $50 arrows.  But be warned the economy arrows are rarely ever fletched properly for good consistent flight in all weather conditions.  And while straightness isn't a deal breaker inconsistent spline and spine are.  Sometimes with economy arrows you just don't know what you are getting until the money has already left your bank account.

[BULLBLASTER]

Glad you had a good experience at sva. I agree with what radsav has said that in most cases arrow prep and assembly will trump straightness. I use .oo3 straightness arrows and fletch my own.

[Band]

But be warned the economy arrows are rarely ever fletched properly for good consistent flight in all weather conditions.

What do you mean by "in all weather conditions", Rad?

[RadSav]

But be warned the economy arrows are rarely ever fletched properly for good consistent flight in all weather conditions.

What do you mean by "in all weather conditions", Rad?

A well tuned arrow indoors will shoot consistently day in day out.  Rotational stability means very little and even FOC doesn't mean all that much.  But add wind, updrafts, heavy rain, frozen ice pellets, water on the arrow...it takes it's toll on accuracy.  To reduce the effects these conditions have on an arrow it's important to address two things; Good FOC / store more energy in the front half of the arrow.  And Good rotation / Gyro stability.  If those two things are addresses well the arrow will resist planing or being driven off course when the friction of mother nature attacks!

[Band]

Makes sense.  Thanks for the clarification.

[Seahawk12]

Radsav, What arrow would you recommend for a Parker Phoenix EZ Draw bow with 28.5" draw length and 70# draw weight?
Also, same set-up, but with a 29" draw length?

Also, which grain tips would you recommend?
When I used my old set-up, I used Easton aluminum fall stalker 2117s with 125 grain broad heads.
These would be for hunting, not competition shooting.
Thanks.