Dr. Mora requests your assistance with independent elk hoof disease research

[RadSav]

What kind of media?  And how do you utilize media in this manner?  $300 doesn't sound like very much!

Media or culture medium is something designed to help grow and develop microorganisms, bacteria, cells, etc. so that a scientist can study them more closely.

I was being a little sarcastic.  Thought the wording and the posting of budget for such was odd.  But that is a nice clarification and appreciated.

[jongosch]

Dr. Mora may not have a handle on our different elk seasons and units, as he's not a hunter himself.

Actually Dr. Mora told me he used to harvest a lot of deer back in North Carolina. 

[pianoman9701]

Dr. Mora may not have a handle on our different elk seasons and units, as he's not a hunter himself.

Actually Dr. Mora told me he used to harvest a lot of deer back in North Carolina.

Even more of a reason he'd have a hard time deciphering our rules. Hunting season regulations back east are way simpler to understand than they are here.

[idahohuntr]

Below is a statement from a current research microbiologist and leptospirosis expert who has assisted WDFW in the investigation:

According to Dr. Jennifer Wilson-Welder, research microbiologist and leptospirosis expert at U.S. Department of Agriculture National Animal Disease Center:  “Several strains of leptospirosis are endemic in wild and domestic animals throughout the world, including Washington.  In endemic hosts, such as deer, elk, cattle, rodents, raccoons, and other wildlife, the disease is limited to the kidney, urinary and reproductive tracts. Muscle and joint pain reported by humans and other susceptible animals, such as dogs or horses, with leptospirosis is due to severe systemic sepsis and a generalized fever response. Systemic sepsis is not a feature of the disease in endemic animal hosts, and has not been observed in any Washington elk examined to date. Leptospirosis does not affect the hooves of animals; and lameness has not been reported as a feature of clinical leptospirosis in farmed New Zealand red deer, a species closely related to North American elk. Proper diagnostic tests have been applied to samples collected from elk, and positive results were found in both non-hoof diseased animals/areas as well as the ones with hoof lesions. Lack of similarity of clinical signs and failure to find Leptospira titers isolated to only the hoof-diseased animals indicate to the veterinary and research team that leptospirosis is not a cause of the hoof-disease[/b]."

While many people want to help, it seems very clear the Leptospirosis has been ruled out by the experts.  I don't post this in an attempt to discredit Dr. Mora, but out of a desire to make sure we don't waste time and resources on causes that can be clearly ruled out.  Stirring up the public and their elected leaders on things that simply won't help solve the hoof rot issue only detracts from available resources that could be better spent actually solving the issue and identifying the best possible management options.

[pianoman9701]

One expert has ruled it out. One thinks it's the problem. Have you some degree in the area of which we're unaware?

[Curly]

I don't see a problem with Dr Mora doing an independent study at no expense to WDFW.  If hunters are willing to help him get some samples, I see no problem.  Maybe he'll rule it out and end up agreeing with the WDFW expert...........or maybe he'll get some data to change the mind of the WDFW expert.  What could it really hurt for him to do his study? 

[GBoyd]

I'm going to be hunting in that area, but I'm not confident enough in my ability to find elk to have a biologist riding along. I would however be happen to plate samples from a harvest elk, if Dr. Mora shares his sampling protocol.

This is not a difficult process for most types of selective media.

[idahohuntr]

One expert has ruled it out. One thinks it's the problem. Have you some degree in the area of which we're unaware?

Its not one expert.  That statement was a consensus statement of the Technical Advisory Group which consists of dozens of independent experts.  WDFW experts and veterinarians as well as the Public Health Veterinarian for Wa Dept. of Health have concluded there is no basis for suggesting Lepto. is the cause.

I agree Curly...Dr. Mora can go collect whatever samples he would like from any willing hunters out there.  I'm pleased WDFW is not participating though...I don't want them wasting any more time and money on something that has been ruled out. 

 

[jongosch]

I'm going to be hunting in that area, but I'm not confident enough in my ability to find elk to have a biologist riding along. I would however be happen to plate samples from a harvest elk, if Dr. Mora shares his sampling protocol.

This is not a difficult process for most types of selective media.

Thanks GBoyd.  I encourage you to give Dr. Mora a call.  I'm confident you two could work something out.

[pianoman9701]

"Independent" may not be quite an accurate description for some of the other "experts". But keep raising the WDFW banner. You're doing a great job. 

[idahohuntr]

I don't provide this supporting evidence out of some blind love for WDFW.  I bring this stuff up because I care about elk and wildlife resources and I know WDFW has been forced to spend time and resources on an issue that has been ruled out by all scientific evidence.  When the critics become counter-productive I think its necessary to point out why they are wrong and why they should stop pushing junk science.

[Little Dave]

Let's look at junk science.  How does it happen and why?

Junk science happens when politics or money is used to coerce an expert or even a panel of experts to produce a desired "best science" result.  People, even scientists can be bought.  It is easy to do.  I'll fund your project if...  You will be promoted or get to keep your job if...  Your budget will be cut unless...

Unfortunately, the DFW and federal agencies are not immune to a junk science result and we see junk science results all the time.  We witness this in the pharmaceutical industry where we see two minute ads for a recently approved drug by FDA experts one year, then a year later the ads for class action lawsuits for people that suffered after taking that drug.  The same can be said of other junk science affecting matters such as rising sea level, the wolves, the fish, safety of the crew working at Hanford.

Try not to give politically funded organizations too much leeway.  Their leaders are politicians and industry lobbyists and a lot of them get to where they are by smiling, shaking your hand, and lying to your face.  Every now and then the public makes a mistake and votes for an ugly one that speaks poorly and is a true volunteer statesman.

If Dr. Mora is an ethical scientist, he will run his test and get the same result as any peer ethical scientist.  Let him go ahead, he doesn't ask for much.  The fact that he is volunteering and does not seem to be taking political influence or money from the government or timber interests means to me that his result, corroborating or refuting the result of the expert panel, would not be the result to be considered junk science.

[chester]

I'm not seeing how people can already be arguing with the results of a study that hasn't been done yet. Strange logic or psychic ability ? Idk


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[idahohuntr]

It does not take psychic ability to read the reports and analyses evaluating leptospirosis in elk already produced by WDFW.  Nor does it take psychic ability to read reports published by WDFW confirming that treponeme bacteria has been isolated in hoof rot elk.  And it most certainly does not take psychic ability to read the consensus statement of a panel of independent experts unequivocally confirming that no evidence suggests leptospirosis is the cause of hoof rot.  All good research should begin with a thorough review of existing information.

[Little Dave]

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." - TR

Indeed, and somewhat ironic that you invoke Roosevelt's phrase in this manner amidst your criticism of the credentialed volunteer.  Don't be too critical of the volunteer doing the work.

The state's failure to cooperate with a reasonable request from Dr. Mora in a timely manner is suspicious.  If their work is solid, his work would corroborate that.  No skin off their nose, so why delay?  Some form of political coercion or ethics issue would be in play for them not to cooperate.  Therefore, any work they produce should be considered suspect, and their cohort potentially corrupted.