NE whitetail buck to doe ratio

[jasnt]

This year I started seeing scrapes right around nov 10th. Just faint little scrapes. Saw bucks chasing does on the Nov 18th-Dec 2nd. Then again on dec 20th and 25th  friend also found nice 4point shed that day(fresh). So now it's January and still seeing fresh scrapes even right after a fresh snow. Finding news rubs with all the bark on top of the fresh snow.  Then 5:30 this morning I hear and faintly see a buck dogging a doe grunting up storm and her just as vocal. 

I thought our buck to doe ratio was getting much better on my home property but I'm still seeing 2nd and 3rd estrus cycles both here at home and north of me. I'm seeing more bucks at home but they are mostly young bucks.

What are you seeing in your neck of the woods?

[idaho guy]

i seen a medium size 4 point dogging a doe hard maybe two weeks ago here in north idaho.   thats the latest rut activity i  have noticed around here.

[huntnnw]

nothing in 127...lotta bucks have dropped and pretty much all the 3 1/2 yr old and older are bare.

[jasnt]

nothing in 127...lotta bucks have dropped and pretty much all the 3 1/2 yr old and older are bare.

sounds like you have a much better ratio there. Last year I noticed a lot of late fawns ex specially on the public land. Pics I'm getting show they are making threw the winter but some are very small!  I may not hunt at home this year and bring in some youth hunters to take some does out.  Bucks I'm seeing are looking thin and dragging there feet.  Hoping we have a good spring this year. 

[huntnnw]

from 4 cams in my area which is an area of about 2 sq miles I have a 1-2 or even a 1-1 ratio Im surprised there isnt more does

[jasnt]

That's a nice ratio. makes for some very healthy fawns and quality replacements

[huntnnw]

my buddies and I hunt up in 101 in the mts and the doe population is really bad. My buddy had 10 bucks for every doe and I was having 3-4bucks to 1 doe. There is a lacking doe pop up there

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Anytime I get into the mountain/big woods the buck doe ratio and age structure is almost always excellent. If anything the doe population is on the low side in some areas like Shane mentioned.The downfall of that is that sometimes the buck you are hunting will disappear for a week or more and may be killed over 3-5 miles away from where you normally see him.

The deer in the mountains anywhere in NE WA get relatively little pressure during all seasons compared to deer in other parts of the country. We have a high percentage of bucks that are dying in old age of natural causes (predator/winter/health, etc)... It's one of the many reasons making baiting illegal makes no sense what so ever... Even with that as a tool we aren't killing a vast majority of the older bucks.

There are some areas I hunt where I never see another bowhunter. There are areas I hunt that even during the rifle there may be a 4-5 rifle guys for thousands of acres.... that is extremely low pressure.

[jasnt]

What I was pointing out is the 2nd and 3 estrus cycles. If there is plenty of bucks the does are still not getting bred quickly. This makes for late fawns and those late fawns must play catch-up to make it threw winter healthy.

[buckcanyonlodge]

I have seen fresh scrapes year-round.. I believe they are more of a social scrape than a breeding scrape. One of the places I find sheds has a couple fresh scrapes on main trails year round. Just what I have observed after spending years in whitetail habitat.

[jasnt]

I have seen fresh scrapes year-round.. I believe they are more of a social scrape than a breeding scrape. One of the places I find sheds has a couple fresh scrapes on main trails year round. Just what I have observed after spending years in whitetail habitat.

i agree and so do I. But these scrapeswhere new not the regular scrapes normally used.   guess we'll see when fawns drop

[huntnnw]

whitetails will scrape yearround reguardless to the rut. I had 5 scrapes on trails last may-july going to a salt.

[jasnt]

What about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?

[DBHAWTHORNE]

What I was pointing out is the 2nd and 3 estrus cycles. If there is plenty of bucks the does are still not getting bred quickly. This makes for late fawns and those late fawns must play catch-up to make it threw winter healthy.

 I see a lot of fawn drops around 1 June. one year I literally watched as a doe gave birth. I came upon her by accident and unfortunately I spooked her just as she dropped. That puts her being bred about 14 November during the first estrus. Even if you have great buck to do ratios you will almost always have a 2nd estrus because some of the yearlings will come into estrus late.. that can be anywhere between 22 Nov- 31 Dec.... A true second estrus would be right around Mid December and the third would be Early-Mid Jan... I have personally never seen rutting that late in WA but it's certainly possible.... I have seen a little bit of rutting behavior around 15 December but for the most part it dies off almost completley within the first 5-10 Days of December (in the areas I hunt). That being said.. the rifle hunters actually have the best time because they get all the build up to the rut when the bucks are moving all over the place looking for does... If they take baiting away I also believe they should remove the rifle rut and give it to the bowhunters. 

[DBHAWTHORNE]

What about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?

That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

whitetails will scrape yearround reguardless to the rut. I had 5 scrapes on trails last may-july going to a salt.

 

And they will especially hit licking branches year round.

[jasnt]

What about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?

That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.

he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly    She was def hot and he was persistent

[DBHAWTHORNE]

What about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?

That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.

he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly    She was def hot and he was persistent

Was it a yearling doe or mature one?

[DBHAWTHORNE]

What I was pointing out is the 2nd and 3 estrus cycles. If there is plenty of bucks the does are still not getting bred quickly. This makes for late fawns and those late fawns must play catch-up to make it threw winter healthy.

 I see a lot of fawn drops around 1 June. one year I literally watched as a doe gave birth. I came upon her by accident and unfortunately I spooked her just as she dropped. That puts her being bred about 14 November during the first estrus. Even if you have great buck to do ratios you will almost always have a 2nd estrus because some of the yearlings will come into estrus late.. that can be anywhere between 22 Nov- 31 Dec.... A true second estrus would be right around Mid December and the third would be Early-Mid Jan... I have personally never seen rutting that late in WA but it's certainly possible.... I have seen a little bit of rutting behavior around 15 December but for the most part it dies off almost completley within the first 5-10 Days of December (in the areas I hunt). That being said.. the rifle hunters actually have the best time because they get all the build up to the rut when the bucks are moving all over the place looking for does... If they take baiting away I also believe they should remove the rifle rut and give it to the bowhunters. 

I should clarify about removing the rifle rut before I tick someone off too much.. I think if they removed baiting the rifle rut hunt should be removed but then I think they should allow multi-season for everyone (no high cost draw tags like they do now)... I wouldn't even be opposed to cross-bows in the archery season (for anyone who wants to) to get more people in the outdoors.... The rifle season should then only be the October early General. The bow season could run from 1 Sept to 15 December with a two week October General and then a two week October Muzzle (all units open and everyone can hunt all seasons).

[nwwanderer]

Ratios change for many reasons.  Blue tongue (EHD), hard winters, late greenups, herd age structure and more.  Fawns may show up in April but I have never seen an early survive very long.  As late as October 1 would not be unusual, but again survival would be very low.  Fawns cycle as they mature so a late surviving fawns could cycle after the first of the year.  A big fawn crop strings out fawning the next year.  A poor fawn crop with more mature does tends to concentrate fawning and improves survival.  From fatherhood studies, not Washington, the number of fawns from an individual buck is very small. 

[jasnt]

What about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?

That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.

he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly    She was def hot and he was persistent

Was it a yearling doe or mature one?

She is a big mature doe. I know her well. She had twins last year.

These deer I have know for years. They all have names and visiting my food plots and feed stations daily. I average 1000-2000 pics a night from the food plots alone. Been doing this for 6 years now so I do have an intemint knowlage of this heard.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

What about the buck dogging the doe on jan 22?

That would be a third rut most likely (unless it was a yearling). How hard was he dogging her.. it could have just be general interest... I have seen bucks dog does that weren't hot.. just doing a little chase but then later ignoring her.

he was relentless. She kept bawling to him them take a few steps. He'd bump her in the rump while grunting quick and repeatedly    She was def hot and he was persistent

Was it a yearling doe or mature one?

She is a big mature doe. I know her well. She had twins last year.

These deer I have know for years. They all have names and visiting my food plots and feed stations daily. I average 1000-2000 pics a night from the food plots alone. Been doing this for 6 years now so I do have an intemint knowlage of this heard.

Definitely very interesting. Not something I have personally witnessed.

[boneaddict]

I wonder if she could have lost her fawn and came back in to heat.   Definitely an outlier.   

[jasnt]

I wonder if she could have lost her fawn and came back in to heat.   Definitely an outlier.   

that is a possibility, I hadn't thought of that.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I wonder if she could have lost her fawn and came back in to heat.   Definitely an outlier.   

that is a possibility, I hadn't thought of that.

 

I didn't think of that either.

[fishnfur]

Very likely the doe was having problems getting pregnant - just like some humans do.  They will keep going into estrous and breeding until they get an egg implanted in the uterus.  I read studies of Muley doe ovaries studied under microscope that indicated that many of the does had already had a unsuccessful pregnancy just prior to that year's main rutting period.

I saw a blacktail fawn this year in early November that couldn't have been older than just 8 - 10 weeks.  I assume they don't survive the winters well when the does are bred in mid-winter and then drop late in summer.

Just my guess of what you are observing.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Very likely the doe was having problems getting pregnant - just like some humans do.  They will keep going into estrous and breeding until they get an egg implanted in the uterus.  I read studies of Muley doe ovaries studied under microscope that indicated that many of the does had already had a unsuccessful pregnancy just prior to that year's main rutting period.

I saw a blacktail fawn this year in early November that couldn't have been older than just 8 - 10 weeks.  I assume they don't survive the winters well when the does are bred in mid-winter and then drop late in summer.

Just my guess of what you are observing.

Makes more sense to me than a third rut resulting from does not being bred.

[fishnfur]

Well, it really kind of is a 3rd "rut", or more probably 5th, based on the late date.  Bucks will always chase and breed a doe in estrous. We think of rut as a thing bucks do, but it is really a doe thing that the bucks respond to.  Every 20 - 28 days, the does will come into heat again until they are impregnated. 

It's not really a rut, it's just the last trickles of breeding activity occurring way outside the normal window that the breeding usually takes place.  One lucky buck is still gettin' some action.  The others are just trying to survive winter, or in the case of this year, enjoying the sun.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

Well, it really kind of is a 3rd "rut", or more probably 5th, based on the late date.  Bucks will always chase and breed a doe in estrous. We think of rut as a thing bucks do, but it is really a doe thing that the bucks respond to.  Every 20 - 28 days, the does will come into heat again until they are impregnated. 

It's not really a rut, it's just the last trickles of breeding activity occurring way outside the normal window that the breeding usually takes place.  One lucky buck is still gettin' some action.  The others are just trying to survive winter, or in the case of this year, enjoying the sun.

I agree..that is why I added not a third rut "as a result of does not being bred"...because you could refer to any breeding activity as rut activity.. I would think that any doe that came into heat was caught in their Nov/Dec cycles... there are plenty of bucks for that.