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Author Topic: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?  (Read 51069 times)

Offline colockumelk

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2009, 11:06:25 PM »
I'm not a magnum basher by any means whatever works for you use it.  As for long shots you don't need a magnum.  Our units snipers were making head shots at 1,000 meters with a .308 round.  Granted they are snipers and we're not.

I remember about 20 years ago when the 30-06 was considered the world greatest elk gun.  Nothing could ever be better. Anything smaller was worthless. About ten years ago the 7mm and the .300 mag was considered the best elk gun in the world and anything smaller was pretty much worthless.  In todays articles and on shows the .338 is considered the best elk gun and anything smaller is pretty much worthless and not nearly enough knockdown.  What happened has our elk herds suddenly begun to grow kevlar fur coats?  Why was my .30-06 powerfull enough in the 80's to kill an elk but today it's too weak?  The answer is making more money but mostly it's because as guys we want more powerful and louder things.  I think the main reason is that people are trying to over compensate for poor shot placement.  Also we want the here and now.  We want that animal to drop this second not run 50 yards and die.

If you talk to most guides they will recommend that you not get a magnum because they kick so hard that many people can not shoot them very accurately because they are scared of them.  There are many stories I've read where guides told horror stories about guys who couldn't hit anything becuase they always flinched at the shot.  Then when handed a .270 they dropped the first animal that came along.  My neighbor has killed over 30 elk with his .270 and by todays standards it a far too weak gun to take elk hunting.  Well I know of over 30 elk that would disagree.  If I shoot a bull elk with my bow he wont go 50 yards if I hit him in the lungs.  My bow has maybe 75 ft lbs of energy.  Hell a .22 has more ft lbs of energy than that.  People have forgotten the key to quick human kills.  It's not having the most powerfull gun in the world it's about accuracy and what works best for you. 

For deer and elk I would not recommend a magnum.  Shoot what you can shoot more accurately.  If that means you shoot a .300 mag then that's fine, but most people can't take that much gun.  Now if I'm up in Alaska for bear or something then hell yeah I want a magnum.  In fact I want a humvee mounted .50 cal.  Just my  :twocents:
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Offline lamar_hunter

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2009, 09:53:34 AM »
big guns turn me on.
I tumbled him..

Offline woodswalker

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »
My go-To guns....

Win 70, 30-06
Ruger 77 7x57
Ruger 77 257 Robts
R700HB .308 Win
Sako 22-250

If i could have ONLY one of them....the 30-06.  If I can SEE it, I can HIT it.

Not that I dont PLAY with the mags....have 2 -300 WM, a 30-338 and a 300 H&H.... :yike:
A Smith & Wesson Beats Four Aces.

Whatta ya mean I can't have one of each?

What we have here is...Washington Department of NO Fish and WATCHABLE Wildlife.
 
WDFW is going farther and farther backwards....we need FISH AND GAME back!

Offline Gutpile

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2009, 02:14:21 PM »


Anyone else feel like there's waaaayy too much hype about a bunch of calibers that really aren't necessary?  I think they just had to find a way to sell all of us more crap to fill up our cabinets.

Thoughts?

I agree but I have the urge occasionally. I think a .308 is plenty for anything in the lower 48 but what fun is that? I just like guns! I only own one magnum rifle, a 350 Rem Mag. BOOM

I always thought that was a cool cartridge. How does it shoot?

Sorry Wapitihunter, I didn't see the question earlier. I'm sure you've been checking several times a day to see my response.  :chuckle: Anyways, it shoots great. With 225 grn partions it feels about like a 300 win mag. It's a mid range cartridge though. It really starts to fall off at about 250 yards. I've only shot one deer with it. I had a doe tag and put a beautifull stalk on this lone doe. Got to about 150-175 yards and put it down. Turned out to be a fawn  :chuckle:  :bash:  :chuckle:  :bash: . Anyways I bought it for bear and elk. Still havent shot an elk at all and didn't bring it this year on my bear hunt.

Actually, I really like the rifle it's a Remmy 673. (Very ugly to some folks). But it handles nice and I think it looks good.

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Offline WAPITIHUNTER

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2009, 02:16:28 PM »
Cool!

Offline Intruder

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2009, 03:03:59 PM »
I agree whole heartily agree with the Subject.  For the most part magnums are about as worthwhile as tits on a boar.  That's coming from someone who shoots a 300 win mag 80% of the time.  People get into discussions of +/- so many inches at X yardage and Y foot lbs of energy and hitting power and knock down power.... blah, blah, blah. 

The reality is that many if not most of us cannot shot the difference between a lot of the guns at the ranges where those differences exist.  The whole knock down power thing is so over hyped too.  Knock down power is total BS.... there's no way to objectively quantify it.  Energy, while it has some meaning, still doesn't give you an easy way to equate it to killing capacity.  There have been a variety of scientific studies done on this subject.  They're not real exciting reading but they do provide a lot of insight in this area.  Bottom-line, killing stuff boils down to putting holes through or destroying vital organs.  Energy dump, knock down power, etc. represent elements in good story telling and conversion more than elements of ballistics and killing animals.         

Generally speaking a guy with a 30-06/280/270 can kill anything in N America (with the exception of maybe grizzly) out to 300 + yards with a well placed shot and a decent quality bullet.  Magnums certainly have a place when it comes to some of the long range shooting but in reality that is a pretty small fraction of hunting scenarios.       

Offline bow-n-head

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2009, 06:03:06 PM »
The biggest problem with those high power magnums is most people who, and I said MOST not all, shoot them are scared of them. When they black and blue your shoulder and give you a headache when you shoot them it's no wonder people flinch. If you muzzel brake them they are so obnoxious no one else wants to be in the same zipcode when you touch one off. I feel I can criticize these, I have a 300 ultra mag and a 300 H&H. Shooting a big game animal at extreme ranges takes the excitement out of the hunt. Just my personal experience. You want an adrenalin rush, shoot a screamin bull elk at 7 steps with a bow. Nothing in my hunting experience holds a candle to that. I'v shot elk with a 243 and a 300 both dispatched elk with one shot. the 243 is a little light, but shot placement is just as important as ft lbs of energy. I got caught up in the high power houpla and ruined a gun. If I could talk someone else out of doing the same I would be happy.

Offline Curly

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2009, 08:54:54 PM »
I agree whole heartily agree with the Subject.  For the most part magnums are about as worthwhile as tits on a boar.  That's coming from someone who shoots a 300 win mag 80% of the time.

Well said.  I also shoot a 300 win mag most of the time and I really like the cartridge, but none of the elk or deer I've killed would have died any slower if I had shot them with a .308 Win.  The farthest I've shot has been 310 yards and most have been under 200. 

I think that when I originally bought the magnums, it was mainly because I didn't have a rangefinder and I figured that with a flat shooting magnum, I would have a better chance of hitting w/out knowing the exact distance.  Rangefinders are a lot better now and cheaper than they were when I bought my magnums.  Now, I have a rangefinder and I think a .308 might replace one of my .300 Win mags one of these days.
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Offline BlackTail

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2009, 02:10:37 AM »
Magnums are completely unnecessary.  Knockdown power and energy are totally a myth!  Bore size, bullet weight and velocity are of little importance.  I mean really;

Anything you can do with a .338 Win you could probably do with a .300 RUM.
And anything you can do with a .300 RUM you could probably do with a .300 Weatherby.
And anything you can do with a .300 Weatherby you could probably do with a .300 Win.
And anything you can do with a .300 Win you could probably do with a 7mm RUM.
And anything you can do with a 7mm RUM you could probably do with a 7mm STW.
And anything you can do with a 7mm STW you could probably do with a 7mm Rem.
And anything you can do with a 7mm Rem you could probably do with a .30-06.
And anything you can do with a .30-06 you could probably do with a .270 Win.
And anything you can do with a .270 Win you could probably do with a .25-06.
And anything you can do with a .25-06 you could probably do with a .243 Win.
And anything you can do with a .243 Win you could probably do with a .22-250.
And anything you can do with a .22-250 you could probably do with a .223.
And anything you can do with a .223 you could probably do with a .204 Ruger.
And anything you can do with a .204 Ruger you could probably do with a .17 Rem Fireball.
And anything you can do with a .17 Rem Fireball you could probably do with a .17 Rem.
And anything you can do with a .17 Rem you could probably do with a .17 HMR.
And anything you can do with a .17 HMR you could probably do with a .22 Mag.
And anything you can do with a .22 Mag you could probably do with a .22 LR.

So, get a good .22 LR, load it up with some good bullets, and make sure you place your shots well.  You're now good for any animal in the lower 48!!

(All in good fun  :))
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 02:38:44 AM by BlackTail »

Offline addicted

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #84 on: May 27, 2009, 04:59:40 AM »
here is an insight on killing the largest animal with a standard caliber.
from- http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm

W.D.M. Bell and His Elephants

By James Passmore



Walter D.M. Bell has become a legend among elephant hunters due to his great success in the ivory trade during the golden age of hunting in East Africa. He is known as “Karamojo” Bell because of his safaris through this remote wilderness area in North Eastern Uganda. He is famous for perfecting the brain shot on elephants, dissecting their skulls and making a careful study of the anatomy of the skull so he could predict paths of bullet travel from a shot at any angle in order to reach the brain. Using mostly 6.5mm and 7mm caliber rifles, he was an advocate of shot placement over big bore power for killing efficiently.

Modern writers on the internet and in magazine articles have tended to refer to him and his tally of elephants in this vein, “He shot many of his 1000 elephants with (such and such) caliber” or words to that effect. In fact, Walter Bell killed well over 2000 elephants in his career. Since most people refer to him for his small caliber prowess and his elephant tally I thought I would try and break it down, because there are a great number of people quoting what “Karamojo Bell” did or didn’t do and I have noted a common tendency in the last few years to play down what he did with small caliber rifles. Perhaps this is in direct relation to the resurgence in popularity of magnums and the larger safari rifles. Craig Boddington is quite apt to mention the "few hundred elephants" that Bell took. (Mr. Boddington, I believe, is an erstwhile heavy rifle enthusiast.)

Bell recorded all of his kills and shots fired. It was a business to him, not pleasure, and he needed to record expenditures.

He shot exactly 1,011 elephants with a series of six Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles with 173 grain military ammo.
He shot 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine.
He shot 200 odd with the .303 and the 215 grain army bullet.

He went to a .318 Westley Richards for a while, which is a cartridge firing a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, but found the ammunition unreliable and returned to the 7mm.
He also recorded that one of the reasons why he favored the 7x57 was that the ammunition was more reliable and he could not recall ever having a fault with it. Whereas British sporting ammunition, apart from the .303 military ammo, gave him endless trouble with splitting cases.
The balance of his elephants were shot with this .318 and his .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle.
He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle.
It was unmentioned, but understood, that 7x57 ammunition cost a tenth the price of large caliber .450/400 Jeffrey cartridges and money is always a factor in business.
Just out of interest, I will mention that to judge ammunition expenditure and his own shooting, he calculated an average. He discovered that with the .275 (7x57mm) he fired an average of 1.5 shots per kill. This means that half the time he only needed one shot. That is a fair performance for such a large number of elephants killed and considering that it is common today to fire an insurance shot, anyway.

It is also interesting to note that, although Bell is the most famous proponent of using small caliber "nitro" rifles for large game, he did not discover the technique, nor was he its earliest advocate. Well known hunter Arthur Neumann, for example, had been shooting elephants with a .303 Lee Metford rifle for years before Walter Bell got into the business.

WDM Bell is forever associated with the John Rigby & Sons Mauser rifle and the .275 Rigby cartridge. ".275 Rigby" was the British designation for the German 7x57mm Mauser cartridge. This cartridge propelled a .284 caliber, 173 grain bullet at around 2300 fps and the bullets he used for elephant brain shots were full metal jacketed solids. He declared once that a soft point bullet had never sullied the bore of his rifle. It is interesting to compare these ballistics with what is commonly regarded as essential performance today.

The Rigby Mauser was just that, a Mauser action rifle in sporting configuration, half stocked and finely finished. The actions were made by the Mauser Company in Germany and Rigby had the rights to sell them in England. The Mauser action was the darling of the sporting world at the time and Bell was obviously a man who appreciated fine rifles; he bought the best. For most of his life, he was an advocate of the bead front blade and express rear sights. However, in later years he used an aperture sight as well as early telescopic sights. His last .275 Rigby rifle was sold by his widow (after his death in 1951) to the writer Robert Ruark, who later presented it to Mark Selby, son of the famous white hunter Harry Selby. A constellation of famous African names converged around the ownership of this rifle. Interestingly, it is a half stock, take down rifle with early telescopic sights and a trap made out of the grip cap to store cleaning gear.

Shot placement for the tricky brain shot on elephants required good marksmanship. Bell constantly practiced by dry-firing his rifle. He always carried his own rifle, eschewing gun bearers (another plus for the lightweight Mauser), and picked pretend targets of opportunity as he traveled, dry firing at a distant rock or bird. He believed that this was the single practice most beneficial to a hunter.

He was a great proponent of the bead foresight and it was his drawings, with which he illustrated his first book Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter, that explained to me how to use a bead front sight properly. You should hold the bead low in the notch so that your elevation is constant and open both eyes so that you can see through your hand and rifle with your non-shooting eye.

As a further example of marksmanship (if brain shooting a great many elephants isn’t enough), Bell used up the remainder of his unwanted .318 ammunition by shooting flying birds over an African lake. Spectators believed that he was using a shotgun and were amazed to find that he was actually using a rifle.

I will make the point that unlike many African writers (Peter Capstick jumps to mind), “Karamojo” Bell doesn’t seem to have been particularly threatened by an elephant, rogue or otherwise. Nor did he have to “turn a charge” or anything like that. The prose in his books has none of the trumpeting about the manly virtues of facing grisly death upon which Capstick built his writing career and that has been popular ever since Hemingway went on a couple of hunting trips. (Hemingway was disappointed when he shot a lion and it just died, and that’s all.)

A great many people have tried to explain away Bell’s elephant hunting success by asserting that he didn’t need to hunt in thick cover and could shoot elephants from long range, the implication being that somehow the behavior of African elephants must have been different back then. This is untrue, as any reader of his books will find. Mr. Bell hunted hard, walked thousands of miles, ran down elephants and was a very cool marksman at close range.

One does not walk down an elephant in uncharted African wilderness with a tool one regards as marginal and Bell had complete confidence in his ability to harvest elephants with the Rigby Mauser. It was his business and also his hide at stake, especially considering that the amount of money to be made was considerable. To put his efforts into perspective, he wrote of one day when he tracked and shot nine elephants. He estimated that he had earned 877 pounds sterling from the ivory harvested from those nine kills. After one expedition he returned with ivory worth over 23,000 pounds sterling. That was a vast sum of money and converted to today’s currency equivalent it would make your eyes water. One does not risk that kind of money and effort on a questionable caliber.

Walter Bell left Scotland a young adventurer obsessed with hunting, traveling to the North American Yukon territory to try to cash in on the gold rush and make his fortune. It did not pan out and he joined the Canadian forces sent to fight alongside the British in the Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th Century. Taken prisoner at one point by the Boers, he later escaped. When the war was settled, he stayed on and bought his way into elephant hunting, outfitting his first safari on foot into East Africa. He later confessed that he had only joined the army in order to get to Africa.

Bell made himself into a successful elephant hunter not just because of his skill with a rifle, but also due to carefully maintained good relations with the local people in the territories through which he traveled. He was always ready with gifts for chiefs and kings; he bought hunting permission from them. One of his best ideas was to post a reward for any African who gave him information on the whereabouts of good elephants. He soon had a flood of elephant sightings coming in and he was as good as his word, readily paying for the information.

When the Great War (World War I) broke out, he became a pilot flying in Tanganyika (Tanzania). He was known for not flying with an observer, because the observer obstructed his view when he tried to shoot enemy planes down with his .450 elephant gun! He later served in Greece and Italy and was twice decorated.

After the War, Bell returned to ivory hunting, traveling by canoe into then uncharted African wilds after legendary herds of large elephants. He made his last expedition in the early 1920’s.

He retired to Scotland a wealthy man; there is no unhappy or overly dramatic ending to his story. He lived unscathed through all of his adventures to enjoy the wealth he had made with his rifle.

Except that, Mr. Bell was not your normal retired chap. He steps once more into history during World War II, sailing his yacht Trenchmare to the shores of Dunkirk in 1940 to help evacuate the besieged Allied forces from the beaches at the age of sixty.

Walter Bell spent his later years writing, practicing art and bird hunting on his Scottish estate. (One imagines with a fine "London best" double gun.) He created water color paintings and ink drawings of red stags in the Highland tussock as well as paintings of splendidly depicted elephants on the savannah, made with an eye for anatomical detail and an appreciation of the body language of the African elephant. He used them to illustrate his books.

He made it clear in his books what he would use if he returned to Africa. With a lifetime of elephant hunting behind him, he felt he could put his finger on the perfect caliber for the purpose. Strange as it may seem, it wasn’t his trusty 7mm Mauser. He seems to have matured and gone for a heavier rig. Any .30 caliber capable of sending a 250 grain bullet at about 2500 feet per second would do nicely as an elephant gun, thank you, old boy.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 10:04:18 AM by addicted »
"Right now, I am thinking that If my grandmother was here, she would be lecturing me about how there are poor people in Africa, that would just love to have a Ruger, I would just say "Great, granny, lets just ship all the Rugers to Africa!"


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Offline Pat/Rick

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #85 on: May 27, 2009, 04:34:17 PM »
.30-30, .30-06, 12Ga., 22LR, .357 mag, 7.62X54R, .410.  If I need "thumpage" I got a 12ga. slug gun. Gun mag guys get paid to write B.S., Politicians are B.S., and I use what works. Hunt close, then get closer.

Offline Pathfinder101

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #86 on: May 27, 2009, 05:24:01 PM »
Agree with most of the comments on this thread that for most hunting, the magnum calibers are unneccessary.  I inherited a .300 Wby Mag from my dad when he died, and quite frankly, though I sometimes shoot it, I have never hunted with it.  It is overkill for deer hunting, where I have always used a .270, and I bowhunt for elk.
IF HOWEVER, I get drawn for some hunt-of-a-lifetime elk hunt with a rifle, you can bet that's what I'll be carrying.  Elk are hard to put down.  And when I make my trip to MT for mule deer this November, I will have it in the pickup as my "backup" gun.  It certainly is not pleasant to shoot however.  I don't know what the hell my dad was thinking when he bought it. 90% of his hunting was for deer.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.  That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Offline bow-n-head

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #87 on: May 27, 2009, 05:52:21 PM »
I shoot my 300 ultra mag because it can shoot a ragged hole at 100 yards. It is overkill, but I do like shooting it. If you are scared of a magnum, don't shoot one, its that simple. For God Sakes this is the United States of America, everything we do is overkill. We like fast cars and women, why not guns?  :twocents: That said I wouldn't try to talk someone into shooting a magnum,  I wouldn't critisize anyone for shooting one either. I know alot of people who bought one and 6 months later sold it. I have a lot of respect for someone who will admit they can't or don't want to shoot a hard kicking rifle.

Offline Pathfinder101

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #88 on: May 27, 2009, 07:54:54 PM »
It is true that most elk back in the "old days" were shot with non-magnum rifles.  But, I know when I was a kid the old timers all used to say;   " you get an elk in your sights, you just keep putting rounds into him til you're sure he's not gonna get up".

Elk are tough.  If I am on a 700 lb bull at 300 yards, I would prefer a magnum.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.  That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Offline h2ofowlr

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Re: Big Magnums - Marketing genius?
« Reply #89 on: May 27, 2009, 08:38:27 PM »
12 gauge works well.  I have killed 8 deer and one elk with my shotgun.  You just have to get close and it drops them hard.
The bench rest shooter made the short magnums popular due to flat shooting and distance.  The .30-06 and .308 are sufficent for most most animals.  I know guys still shooting .243's for big game.  It's all about shot placement.  Besides the short mags kick like a mule.  Especially if you have a 6-1/2" A-bolt or along those lines.
Cut em!
It's not the shells!  It's the shooter!

 


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