collapse

Advertisement


Author Topic: 4 pt. restriction 117/121  (Read 78738 times)

Offline PA BEN

  • LINEMAN
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 4877
  • Location: Chewelah
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #180 on: June 23, 2016, 11:26:37 AM »
The biggest argument I have heard against this is that some young deer are 8 points.

That seems like pretty lame argument. Wonder how many 1.5-2.5 year old deer have 4 points on one side. If it's not 100%, then are you not saving deer?

The 2nd argument was gene pool. Why would you kill all the older bucks.

Even sillier. Bucks get smarter as they get older, meaning the chances of you killing him are smaller. Secondly, how does that even make sense. With such a wide variety of hunters gene selection is mute. The same as deer at 1.5-2.5 years old being killed, gene selection is mute.

Then the newest argument. Wdfw stats?

What stats? The ones that list all the locals loving the new restrictions. The ones that list year in and out population. How bout the one that lists less people hunting it, making the number of bucks being killed lower. That didn't seem to get mentioned.


I feel like it's such a shame to do this experiment for an unserviceable amount of time, only to have thousands more hunters come in and take over 700 bucks 3 point or less in gmu 121. What a shame and disservice to conservation. Killing a buck is not your right.  It's a privelage. If no sacrifice is ever made, quality of hunts will continue to suffer.

Its just shocking to me the amount of people who want to kill a baby deer. Make no fuss about it. A deer 1.5 years old is a baby. Possibly the end of a blood line.
Yep and you would shoot a baby spike elk too. But I guess that doesn't end a blood line.

Offline MTMule

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Tracker
  • **
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: MT
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #181 on: June 23, 2016, 02:06:32 PM »
Here would be my perfect plan.  Allow youth and seniors to shoot any deer.  Everyone else 3 point not counting eyeguards.  I cannot fathom why people wouldn't support this.   :dunno:   

I have yet to talk to a local hunter ( and I talk to many, many of them ) who didn't support the APR.  But hey let's just keep slaughtering future giants when they are fork horns!   :IBCOOL:   :yike:

I agree with this.

I simply do not support killing young deer. Its a personal preference. Give the little guys a chance to live, get to breeding age.

They're generally to stupid to get out of the way. So yes, let the young hunters, disabled, elderly have a chance at them. But if you are an able bodied man or women and just want to take the fastest kill then you aren't really out there for the experience of hunting. You want to "slaughter" something, anything.

I just don't get it. Maybe because I've been hunting longer then most people. There's never been a year in my life where I couldn't of harvested a younger deer. Yet success rates are atrocious relatively.

My advice to the spike killers of the world. Start learning the woods, learning to hunt, and quit looking to just slaughter.

I hope this ruffles some feathers, because while I understand someone has differing opinions, the opinion to kill young animals disgusts me.

Offline bearpaw

  • Family, Friends, Outdoors
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 38555
  • Location: Idaho<->Colville
  • "Rather Be Cougar Huntin"
    • http://www.facebook.com/DaleDenney
    • Bearpaw Outfitters
  • Groups: NRA, SCI, F4WM, NWTF, IOGA, MOGA, CCOC, BBB, RMEF, WSTA, WSB
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #182 on: June 23, 2016, 03:08:01 PM »
The APR was working great, the buck ratio was up and the previous harvest level was getting closer to being reached each year with mature bucks from these units. Even locals who previously were opposed could see the benefit. It's just sad to see everything that was gained go down the tubes but so be it, some people don't seem to want to improve the herd and WDFW is mostly about selling licenses. I'm done arguing about it, those who simply want the most liberal seasons can have it their way. YOU WIN!  :tup:

I spent the entire spring out in the woods hunting turkey/bear and have been counting deer. Yes we probably still have more deer than any other area of the state but without good management that could change. But hey, if they are going to have a liberal season we are going to hunt it too. I've still got buck and doe hunts available for anyone who wants to kill a deer and according to some people the herd is as good as it's ever been!
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline grundy53

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2010
  • Posts: 12860
  • Location: Lake Stevens
  • Learn something new everyday.
    • facebook
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #183 on: June 23, 2016, 03:15:20 PM »
Here would be my perfect plan.  Allow youth and seniors to shoot any deer.  Everyone else 3 point not counting eyeguards.  I cannot fathom why people wouldn't support this.   :dunno:   

I have yet to talk to a local hunter ( and I talk to many, many of them ) who didn't support the APR.  But hey let's just keep slaughtering future giants when they are fork horns!   :IBCOOL:   :yike:

I agree with this.

I simply do not support killing young deer. Its a personal preference. Give the little guys a chance to live, get to breeding age.

They're generally to stupid to get out of the way. So yes, let the young hunters, disabled, elderly have a chance at them. But if you are an able bodied man or women and just want to take the fastest kill then you aren't really out there for the experience of hunting. You want to "slaughter" something, anything.

I just don't get it. Maybe because I've been hunting longer then most people. There's never been a year in my life where I couldn't of harvested a younger deer. Yet success rates are atrocious relatively.

My advice to the spike killers of the world. Start learning the woods, learning to hunt, and quit looking to just slaughter.

I hope this ruffles some feathers, because while I understand someone has differing opinions, the opinion to kill young animals disgusts me.
Don't fall off your high horse. You might get hurt....

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Molôn Labé
Can you skin Grizz?

The opinions expressed in my posts do not represent those of the forum.

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3396
  • Location: Hoquiam, WA
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #184 on: June 23, 2016, 04:05:38 PM »
Here's a study from Texas that shows what a fail it is to protect spikes as far as producing large antlered deer. What an antler point restriction does, is put all the pressure on the deer with the best antler growing genetics. And most of it falls on yearling deer with great genetics and takes them out of the herd, leaving spikes with their poor genetics behind. Think about it, a 4 or 5 point yearling is still a yearling and is as uneducated about hunters as a spike is.  So antler restrictions wind up hurting genetics, not helping them. You want larger antlers? A spike only season for a few years would help.

This study has photos to help drive the point home. Another point is look at all the game ranches around the country who manage their herds specifically for larger antlers. You think they kill off all the youngsters that show great potential and leave the spikes and small forks? Heck no! in fact they have special rates and will actually let you take extra deer if you kill what they consider a "management" buck, or one with inferior antler genetics.  They also cull lots of does so the habitat isn't stressed assuring the superior bucks are well fed and healthy. This is the opposite of what most of the 4 point or better inclined people on this site push for.  But you don't get great bucks by taking out the best young deer and leaving the rest to breed.

http://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild/game_management/deer/genetics/
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 08:48:41 PM by Sitka_Blacktail »
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

  • Non-Hunting Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3396
  • Location: Hoquiam, WA
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #185 on: June 23, 2016, 04:17:49 PM »
Here is another good read on the subject. Go down to page 22 to read about predicting future antler size by the size of the antler as a yearling. Forked or better spikes definitely grow larger antlers in succeeding years than spikes do.

http://texnat.tamu.edu/files/2010/09/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdition.pdf
A man who fears suffering is already suffering from what he fears. ~ Michel de Montaigne

Offline bearpaw

  • Family, Friends, Outdoors
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 38555
  • Location: Idaho<->Colville
  • "Rather Be Cougar Huntin"
    • http://www.facebook.com/DaleDenney
    • Bearpaw Outfitters
  • Groups: NRA, SCI, F4WM, NWTF, IOGA, MOGA, CCOC, BBB, RMEF, WSTA, WSB
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #186 on: June 23, 2016, 04:39:41 PM »
Here is another good read on the subject. Go down to page 22 to read about predicting future antler size by the size of the antler as a yearling. Forked or better spikes definitely grow larger antlers in succeeding years than spikes do.

http://texnat.tamu.edu/files/2010/09/TheRoleofGeneticsinWhitetailedDeerManagement2ndEdition.pdf


I suppose if NE WA was open country and all 4 point bucks could be shot out your comments might carry some value. Rather, the evidence showed that we were gaining on 4 point bucks so your argument is void. Additionally there are studies that say the size of horns the first year have no relevance to the size of horns in future years, in fairness I do tend to believe that first year bucks with larger antlers will more often grow larger antlers later in life. But, the fact is there is no evidence that all the first year 4 points were being killed? So again your points really are baseless. On the other side of the coin, the harvest stats show that the harvest of mature bucks was increasing and if the APR would have continued for another couple years the harvest of all 4pt bucks would likely have equaled or exceeded previous years harvest.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 04:55:32 PM by bearpaw »
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline bearpaw

  • Family, Friends, Outdoors
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 38555
  • Location: Idaho<->Colville
  • "Rather Be Cougar Huntin"
    • http://www.facebook.com/DaleDenney
    • Bearpaw Outfitters
  • Groups: NRA, SCI, F4WM, NWTF, IOGA, MOGA, CCOC, BBB, RMEF, WSTA, WSB
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #187 on: June 23, 2016, 04:48:25 PM »
I'll post this again. I'll also remind everyone that most agencies will tell you that doe harvest is used to control the growth of a population or to reduce the population. If you don't believe me then call agencies in any other state and ask. Additionally, having APR does not cause a reduction in an overall population as someone previously attempted to assert!  :chuckle:

A while back I had tried to find this message I received back from a Pennsylvania Game Commission member, I just happened to stumble upon it and thought I would post it.



Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:38 AM
To: Bearpaw Outfitters
Subject: Re: 4pt rule

Dale,

PA implemented antler restriction in 2003. The goal was to get a  more balanced age-class of bucks.  Prior to AR Pa hunters killed 85% of all bucks before they reached 2 years old.  Remember, PA has one-million hunters in the field on the first day of deer season.

 In most of the state the AR rules required a minimum of 3-points on one side.   In western PA where the habitat was so good a 1-1/2 year old deer might carry a 6-8 point rack (we count both sides), so the AR rules were raised to a minimum 4-points on one side. 

We are now considering modifying the 4-point area to a 3-on top or 3-up rule, where the brow tine doesn't count.  We found that since 8-point racks are the common configuration for mature bucks, hunters were seeing these bucks during hunting season, but couldn't pull the trigger because it was so difficult to see a brow tine. 

Our records show that 88% of 8-points have brow tines.  So this change will only result in an additional 12% of bucks being removed from the age class distribution. We do not feel this will adversely affect the age-class distribution.

Obviously not all hunters like antler restrictions, but after a few years it reached a 68% approval rate.

I hope this helps.
-Commissioner R. Martone
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline hunter399

  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Old Salt
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 8775
  • Location: In Your Hunting Spot
  • Groups: NRA RMEF
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #188 on: June 23, 2016, 04:55:57 PM »
As long its a legal deer in the state or gmu,tag it ect.Your cool by me,maybe hunters should blame WDFW for the management and not other hunters that play by the rules.I never had a problem with 4pt harvest sad it went away,but we dont make the rules.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 05:03:47 PM by hunter399 »

Offline bearpaw

  • Family, Friends, Outdoors
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 38555
  • Location: Idaho<->Colville
  • "Rather Be Cougar Huntin"
    • http://www.facebook.com/DaleDenney
    • Bearpaw Outfitters
  • Groups: NRA, SCI, F4WM, NWTF, IOGA, MOGA, CCOC, BBB, RMEF, WSTA, WSB
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #189 on: June 23, 2016, 06:05:37 PM »
The "shoot everything" crowd won, the rule is gone so this is really a pointless discussion now. I'll play by whatever rules we are given.  ;)
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups & quit losing opportunity!

http://bearpawoutfitters.com Guided Hunts, Unguided, & Drop Camps in Idaho, Montana, Utah, and Wash. Hunts with tags available (no draw needed) for spring bear, fall bear, bison, cougar, elk, mule deer, turkey, whitetail, & wolf! http://trophymaps.com DIY Hunting Maps are also offered

Offline Rooster1981

  • R.K.
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Longhunter
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2011
  • Posts: 683
  • Location: Mason County
    • Roosters Kennel
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #190 on: June 23, 2016, 07:08:38 PM »
I personally dont care if i shoot a buck. My main goal is to get my two young daughters there first deer and elk. They are ages 10 and 12. We had decided to hunt unit 117 this year for muzzy deer and elk. They were super exited after our turkey hunt to go back at a chance for any deer. It was tuff to break it to them that the wdfw changed the rules in the middle of the year to Any Buck. I can tell you this if it were still 4 pt min,I never would have concidered  hunting this unit.
Hunting hounds since 1993

Offline bobcat

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2007
  • Posts: 39202
  • Location: Rochester
    • robert68
4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #191 on: June 23, 2016, 08:10:22 PM »
Rooster1981-  I believe 117 is still open for "any deer" for youth. I think the seasons they changed were the archery and muzzleloader. If you look at the corrections they have posted online, the change from "any deer" to "any buck" was on pages 20 and 21. Page 19 has the modern seasons and there was a correction to the dates, but it remains open for "any deer." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.




http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/01799/2016_big_game_regulations_errata.pdf

Offline jasnt

  • ELR junkie
  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Old Salt
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2010
  • Posts: 6539
  • Location: deer park
  • Out shooting
  • Groups: WSTA
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #192 on: June 23, 2016, 10:39:36 PM »
You are correct
https://www.howlforwildlife.org/take_action  It takes 10 seconds and it’s free. To easy to make an excuse not to make your voice heard!!!!!!

The commission shall attempt to maximize the public recreational game fishing and hunting opportunities of all citizens, including juvenile, disabled, and senior citizens.
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012

Offline PA BEN

  • LINEMAN
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Frontiersman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2008
  • Posts: 4877
  • Location: Chewelah
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #193 on: June 24, 2016, 03:05:47 AM »
Here would be my perfect plan.  Allow youth and seniors to shoot any deer.  Everyone else 3 point not counting eyeguards.  I cannot fathom why people wouldn't support this.   :dunno:   

I have yet to talk to a local hunter ( and I talk to many, many of them ) who didn't support the APR.  But hey let's just keep slaughtering future giants when they are fork horns!   :IBCOOL:   :yike:

I agree with this.

I simply do not support killing young deer. Its a personal preference. Give the little guys a chance to live, get to breeding age.

They're generally to stupid to get out of the way. So yes, let the young hunters, disabled, elderly have a chance at them. But if you are an able bodied man or women and just want to take the fastest kill then you aren't really out there for the experience of hunting. You want to "slaughter" something, anything.

I just don't get it. Maybe because I've been hunting longer then most people. There's never been a year in my life where I couldn't of harvested a younger deer. Yet success rates are atrocious relatively.

My advice to the spike killers of the world. Start learning the woods, learning to hunt, and quit looking to just slaughter.

I hope this ruffles some feathers, because while I understand someone has differing opinions, the opinion to kill young animals disgusts me.
I spent a lot of years feeding my family  on a low income, my wife stayed home with the girls, 5 daughter's. It was about putting meat on the table. You can't eat horns. And I doubt you hunted longer than most and you must be a Democrat by the way you want your way for everyone.

Offline Bango skank

  • Political & Covid-19 Topics
  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Old Salt
  • ******
  • Join Date: May 2014
  • Posts: 5880
  • Location: colville
Re: 4 pt. restriction 117/121
« Reply #194 on: June 24, 2016, 03:19:08 AM »
There were only 2 units with the apr, plenty of any buck units left to choose from.  So the people who wanted the apr gone also must be "democrats who want their way for everyone."
Those of us who wanted the apr just wanted the option of having our way, while still leaving the option of hunting any buck units to the brown is down guys.

 


* Advertisement

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2025, SimplePortal