Finding brace height on old Bear recurves.

[Rich_S]

I have a couple of old Bear recurve bows. Is there a website which lists the factory suggested string brace height? I been searching the internet 'til I'm blue in the face, but can't find a thing. 

[Rich_S]

Nope - neither one.

 

[Rich_S]

They are both a 66" AMO. You can buy strings for that length.

I understand that. I am trying to find the factory recommended brace height setting.

Also when buying the string I would not use the fast flight on the old bows. There are some good YouTube videos on building Flemish twist strings. Takes about 15 minutes to build one.

Mongo not savvy "Fast Flight". 

I bought two strings for 66" Bear bows - custom made. I brought one of the bows to the shop before I ordered the strings. When I got the other bow, it had a string on it. I strung the first bow with a new string and let it sit a week to stretch out. The length of the old string is 63-1/4". The stretched-out length of the new string is 63-3/4".

The brace height of the older bow with the new string at the end of the week was 5-3/16". The brace height on the second bow with the included string was 6-1/8". If I switch strings, the respective brace heights are 6-3/8" and 4-13/16".

I have yet to take both bows to the string maker and sort this out. I had to make my phone call to him short because of a pressing matter, but I did hear him say that he needs to look up his old Bear manuals for each bow. Off the top of his head, he said the Kodiak Special should have a brace height of 7" - 7-1/4" (I think). He also said the Tamerlane had a factory recommended BH of 9-14" (If I remember correctly).

I will be taking both bows and the strings in to him and I'm sure he'll sort it out. I'm just trying to understand why different models of the same brand of bow - with the same length - would use different brace heights and different length strings.

Hence my question. Is there a table of brace heights for older Bear bows and, if so, is it published on the internet?

[BULLBLASTER]

I think most recurve bows try for a 7 ish or slightly longer brace height.

[TONTO]

 You might try over at tradgang.com and do a search. Even if not a member the ?'s probably been asked. At 66" amo "recurve" I would think the string would be 62". Does the brace seem low to you?

[Rich_S]

You are looking for brace height. You threw be with base. Thought you were trying to buy a string.

Fast flight  is the material the string is made of. It will cut into the older bows. Not sure what the beating the horse is about just trying to help.

Shows you how familiar I am with terminology. I could claim a typo, but I thought it was "base" height. My bad. I went back and corrected the "typos".

The horse beating was in reference to "Mongo" humor. Remember Mongo in Blazing Saddles? One-punch Alex Carras knocking out the horse? I was making fun of my ignorance, that's all. Sorry if it came across wrong.

[TONTO]

  General rule for AMO string length is -4" for recurve and -3" for long bow. If
 what you have seems low you can try twisting the string to get your 62", then recheck your brace hight. Although I said a general rule, some bowers use different lengths to get a specific brace hight. AMO was suposed to standardize everything, but who sticks to a standard?

[Rich_S]

You might try over at tradgang.com and do a search. Even if not a member the ?'s probably been asked. At 66" amo "recurve" I would think the string would be 62". Does the brace seem low to you?

I'll do a search over there. All I've found so far is stuff like, "To tune a traditional bow, you need to know the brace height". Okay, fine. Perhaps the original owner of the bow knew it, but he died forty years ago (in this case).

Yah, 4-13/16" does seem a tad low. Thanks for the link. 

[dreamunelk]

You might try over at tradgang.com and do a search. Even if not a member the ?'s probably been asked. At 66" amo "recurve" I would think the string would be 62". Does the brace seem low to you?

 

[Old Dog]

6 3/4" to 7 1/2".  The shorter brace height will be a little faster, but less forgiving.  The longer brace height is slower, but more forgiving.  I like 7 1/4".   

[RadSav]

Those older Bear bows could often be a PIA to find proper strings for.  I expect that is because most were made prior to the AMO standards and the use of standardized Bowstring Master Set steel cables.  My history with Bill Steward was that he did not like using Master Sets and would measure from limb tip to limb tip before forming instead of string groove to string groove.  That would make a string for proper fit shorter than the AMO standard of today.

AMO standard of measure is that a 66" bow is one measured at proper minimum brace height using a Bowstring Master Set cable of 63".  The approximate length of that bow will be 66" from string groove to string groove without the string on the bow and following the curve of the limbs.

An AMO 66" bowstring will be 63" measured under tension.  On bows with a draw weight of more than 40# at 28" the measurement will be made under 100# of tension for 20 seconds.  On bows with a draw weight of less than 40# at 28" the measurement will be made under 50# of tension for 20 seconds (explains variance in your two 66" bows).  This assures that strings of different fibers and stretch rates will ultimately measure out the same when in use on the bow.

These proper AMO string lengths will usually be done when the string is in an un-twisted condition.  Flemish Twist string and others of similar construction may need a few twists to make sure they do not unravel.  But, in those situations the string should be measured under it's minimum safe twist level.  Since this is the minimum brace height length the strings can then be only twisted tighter for fine tuning and proper function.

Much confusion arises when the term "Bow Length minus 4" is used.  This is because most home string makers do not have the ability to measure strings under tension.  And since a traditional length Dacron string will usually stretch a full inch under 100# of tension it appears 4" shorter than bow length when made or taken out of the package.  A FastFlite string mill measure longer at static and a 452X might measure even a bit longer yet.  This is not an accurate measurement, but within the text of a traditional bow and Dacron material...it's close enough!

I have not spent much time with either of those bows in probably 25 years or more.  So this is just my expectation of what brace height would be:  I expect brace height for the Kodiak Special to be between 7.5 and 8.5".  I expect the Tamerlane to be about 1" higher in brace height.

I will usually start with my brace height at just over traditional fistmele height from the face of the bow (not the saddle).  My hand puts fistmele right at 6" so maybe 6.25 to 6.5" from the face to start.  When you calculate the distance from the face to the saddle that is probably 3/4" on the Kodiak Special and over an inch on the Tamerlane.  That would mean starting approximately 7 to 7.25 on the Kodiak Spl. and maybe 7.75" on the Tamerlane

From there I like to add twists and shoot with my eyes closed.  I keep twisting until the noise and vibrations start to settle.  From there I add about three to six twists to hedge against creep and then get to shooting.  Absolutely nothing is set in stone for traditional bows.  It's part of their charm

[RadSav]

JKeen33 was right on about string material.  I second that 100%.  No way I would use anything other than a B-50 Dacron string on either of those bows!

[Rich_S]

Just put some twists in the new string until you get to roughy 7 " you can adjust up and down from there as needed.

I tried that after letting it sit a week under tension. Twisting the string 10 turns increased the brace height from 5-1/4" to 5-1/2".  So. I figured 10 turns = 1/4". Then I added 30 more turns. Again, that only increased the brace height by 1/4" to 5-3/4". After sitting a few hours, the BH was back to 5-3/8". Obviously, twisting was never going to get me up to 7" or a bit more (my idea for a "close enough" BH at that time). 

[Rich_S]

6 3/4" to 7 1/2".  The shorter brace height will be a little faster, but less forgiving.  The longer brace height is slower, but more forgiving.  I like 7 1/4".   

Short and sweet answer - Thanks! Do you have something as simple for the relationship of BH to string length? Approximately, that is.

[Rich_S]

Those older Bear bows could often be a PIA to find proper strings for. . . (snip)
. . .Absolutely nothing is set in stone for traditional bows.  It's part of their charm

Wow! What a wealth of information there. I'm going to copy your reply to a .pdf file and file it in my <Archery> folder. I'll be referring to it often, I'm sure. You should write a book, methinks. Not only is the data there, the explanation of why and its background makes sense.

I'll be starting with this: "I will usually start with my brace height at just over traditional fistmele height from the face of the bow (not the saddle).  My hand puts fistmele right at 6" so maybe 6.25 to 6.5" from the face to start.  When you calculate the distance from the face to the saddle that is probably 3/4" on the Kodiak Special and over an inch on the Tamerlane.  That would mean starting approximately 7 to 7.25 on the Kodiak Spl. and maybe 7.75" on the Tamerlane ". Some new terms I haven't run across there. But don't tell me - I need to look them up for myself. I'll start by looking for an illustration of a recurve with tags showing its nomenclature. (Be sure to put one in your book, right at the front.)

When I was trying to measure the strings I have, the thought came to me, "How do I get an accurate measurement of this puppy?" "Do I try to stretch it out or just pinch the end loops?" "Do I measure to the outside of the string at the loop or the inside?" I ended up pinch the loops using the TLAR method (That Looks About Right) and measuring to the center of the string. Didn't figure 1/16" or 1/8" of string length made much difference when we're talking 3-5" lacking in BH.

It is a 60 mile round trip drive for me (and $5 in bridge tolls) to the nearest shop and the fellow who made these strings for me. He seems really knowledgeable and I feel he was confident they would work. I'm also confident he'll be able to make them right (or make new ones). I just need to find the time to get there and back and hope he can do it while I wait, so's I don't need to make two trips.

Like JKEEN33 said, I need to learn how to make my own strings.