soft expectations....

[muleyguy]

That's not a thesis.  That's a set of opinions wrapped in irrelevant facts supported by no numbers.  Here's some data and you tell me what they mean in terms of trend.  Antlerless and Anlered are for Districts 4-8 the heart of cascade mule deer country along with the total of hunters afield state wide:


            Hunters    Antlerless    Antlered
2014    120,488      2006          6225
2013    123,928      1071          5608
2012    120,082       633           5391
2011    125,537       532           4821
2010    131,133       548           4761
2009    135,859       461           5605
2008    144,514      544            4135
2007    139,241
2006    135,195
2005    135,653

The kill counts take more time to compile before 08 so I skipped it but I certainly can go do it.

Your contention is that hunting is disimproving and getting more crowded.  The trends are clear as day. There are fewer and fewer hunters on a downtrending line.  Those hunters are killing MORE mule deer than in the past. I see that before the fires of 14 the doe alocation was increasing.  That's not a sign of too few deer and the antlered kill supports that for those years too.  I expect that 2015 and 20116 will now see reductions because the big doe kill last year was driven by the fire decision.

Overall, you are simply wrong. Hunter's are diminishing no matter what you say about population. Success is improving. Antlerless availablility is UP indicating they feel the herd is at carrying capacity.  To me this points out that there's no biological imperative to changing the system.  The demands to change the system are about aesthetics and perception of quality. It's not about deer management. I bet if we had the age data of hunters we'd see that the pool is getting older all the time and recuriting fewer new young hunters. Our trend without doing anything at all is toward more space with fewer hunters getting more deer per hunter.

this is called soft expectations.........the reason the deer hunters are going down??  hmmmmm.......not hard to discern that....you conveniently left out "hunter days"  my guess, is that once you calculate that, it isn't as drastic as you make it seem........for people on here that know me, I'm good at digging out WDFW data;  in this case, I'm not going to waste my time......

the reason for decreased hunters?   that is not hard......its called "poor experience".....we are losing hunter from poor experience in the field.  Ttust me, if we had excellent experience, there would be more demand then supply........

what do you think is the cause of declining hunter numbers when tags are unlimited?   trust me......its not because the experience is so excellent...........

go look at the whitetail units in northern spokane after the APR........the best success of the APR (and why the special interest groups (landowners.outfitters) were for it)  was to discourage hunters.  and it did an excellent job of this.

how exciting is it to go hunt mule deer in mid october with an
apr???  Not very exciting.....which results in every increasing lower hunter numbers....

so, what we are doing management wise in this state is , instead of doing draw only, is putting in stupid regulations in the name of "science" that are really designed to reduce hunter pressure without reducing opportunity......

so, go ahead and keep your soft expectations........it will just delay what really needs to happen......and, by the way.....I saw a unicorn crapping skittles up in the okanagon the other day.........maybe we should put a season out for them???

let me clue you in.........the reason we are seeing lower deer hunter numbers is because the experience is so poor, many are giving up on it.......

soft expectations instead of real change......

[jrebel]

Could the decline in hunters also be due to price of tags, less youth hunters, etc.....  Your assessment seems a little one sided and centered around quality of hunt.  Though I don't disagree that quality of hunt may be a part of it....I don't agree it is all of it. 

Price of tags, less public land (private timber pay to play), less youth hunting, gated roads, ect. ect. ect.....all play a role in smaller total number of hunters.   

[syoungs]

I have to think price of tags, point creep, and quality of out of state hunts all have lead me to looking to other states for my big game hunting. I only have so much time to hunt in a year, might as well pay a little extra to go somewhere with better quality.

[hunterofelk]

Very difficult to get young people started in hunting, especially on the west side. Only a couple of weekends and they can't miss school.  By the time they are out of school they are busy with starting their life's and hunting doesn't hold any excitement. My two stepsons took the hunter Ed course, but we could never find a free weekend or area to hunt close enough to home. Now they are just not interested.

[haus]

Very difficult to get young people started in hunting, especially on the west side. Only a couple of weekends and they can't miss school.  By the time they are out of school they are busy with starting their life's and hunting doesn't hold any excitement. My two stepsons took the hunter Ed course, but we could never find a free weekend or area to hunt close enough to home. Now they are just not interested.

Tough to take in how quickly things have changed. '98-'99 when weyco closed the gates, it was a pinnacle shift in what to expect with land management from the majors. This also coincided with the impact of the changes implemented on National Forest lands, which were initially applied in the early 1990's, but it took until the late 90's early 2000's to see the effects. These two changes were also impacted by the third, predator populations, due to the loss of the ability to bait and/or use hounds to hunt predators, as well as major restrictions for trapping. The four would be disease. The fifth would be a statewide effect, pay to play. I remember my parents jokingly saying in my early teens that at some point in my life time I'd see a time where you'd have to pay for access just to hunt. 20 years later its the standard, not the exception.

While the first four impacts have taken their established toll for the most part, its the fifth that continues to accelerate rapidly.

Getting young people into hunting now, versus how it was up through the 90's has changed significantly. Our options then seemed unlimited, now it is if you have the money.

[boneaddict]

There are a lot more points than just your one sided argument.   

I have the opportunity to kill a 190 class buck every season on public land with an over the counter tag.   I have the expectations to enjoy my season every year with the hope to fill my freezer with a mature buck with one of the simplest legal primitive weapons I can use.   

[JimmyHoffa]

Getting the young people approved to begin with is tougher and tougher.  They used to hold hunter's ed at the schools and could get a large number of people qualified early on.  Now, there seems to be lots of people waiting for the next year of HE classes. 

[Miles]

There are a lot more points than just your one sided argument.   

I have the opportunity to kill a 190 class buck every season on public land with an over the counter tag.   I have the expectations to enjoy my season every year with the hope to fill my freezer with a mature buck with one of the simplest legal primitive weapons I can use.   

Welcome back... I was starting to think you found a new spot to hang out.

[boneaddict]

Yep, that's discouraged my family, not to mention the conflict with premier sports, something that really didn't exist when I was a kid.  Throw in the cost of a license and tags.  Its not a casual purchase anymore.   Also cant just hop on the tenspeed and hope to have an evenings hunt.   80% of the land where I spent 80% of the time hunting growing up is behind a posted sign now.   

[boneaddict]

Just busy Miles.   Thankyou.   Managed to submit my permit apps today.   

[WAcoueshunter]

Yeah, as others have noted, I think it's a pretty big leap to assume the decline from 144K hunters to 120K hunters in six years is due to declining experience in the field.  In fact, the numbers would argue otherwise - fewer hunters and significantly more harvest in recent years, wouldn't that indicate a better experience? 

[boneaddict]

Nah that's just technology.  Its going to be the end all to hunting

[boneaddict]

There was a big surge around 2007 because of the creation of this site, and as people became addicted to the keyboards and realized that it was more fun to be on here than actually out hunting, the decline began.   It was cheaper, saved gas money, and all sorts of different factors to just sit here and spin stories.

[Bigshooter]

Less hunters, more deer being killed, and you call that a declining experience.   I call it a better experience.

[LeviD1]

Getting the young people approved to begin with is tougher and tougher.  They used to hold hunter's ed at the schools and could get a large number of people qualified early on.  Now, there seems to be lots of people waiting for the next year of HE classes.

 

I think this and tag costs are two of the biggest issues. I know some people trying to get through hunters ed and to get into a field course after the online class since that's almost the only thing you can take it as anymore is so hard. You have to register for the field course at midnight the first night registration opens up because there very very limited classes for the demand. Otherwise you have to wait another year and hope you get registered on time. Its to bad there isnt more classes instead of so much online. I dont have kids but if there were knowledgeable instructors and hands on with empty weapons like when I took it. I would pay $75-100 per child instead of doing online so its worth instructors time to want to teach it. I always grew up around guns and hunting so that part wasnt all knew to me, but there were quite a few kids in the class that were never around it. Sorry I just dont think online classes is a good way to teach gun handling. Tag costs is a big deal to. If you and your spouse say hunt for all big game deer, bear, elk, cougar, and small game and fishing license like I do. Then you got say 2 kids that get deer, bear, or deer, elk or just deer and a small game, and fishing license if their over 14 or whatever the age is. Then if you buy turkey tags at all. Your looking at at least $350 up to probably around $500 just dropping on tags. Then any applications you want to put in for on top of that. Then gear for the family, cost of gas, food and whatever else for the weekend. Thats thousands. Just to have a chance at getting an animal. Thats probably why most people think why do all that when I can go to the store. Or maybe they think instead of spending time and money on hunting lets go on a 1-2 weeks vacation somewhere. Of tag costs dropped to what they were 10-15 years ago I'm sure there would be a lot more people hunting in washington. Cause then you have people who go out of state for maybe some better hunting for a few hundred more but maybe increase their success rate by 40%. Thats my  anyways

[bobcat]

It's really doesn't cost that much to buy hunting licenses for kids. It's $21.80 for deer or elk. That just doesn't seem like it should keep anybody from hunting if they want to. To apply for special permits is only $3.80.

[fishnfur]

Though the original point of the thread decries the reason for decreasing hunter numbers is the poor hunting experience/success, upon reading further, it is apparent that there are many, many good reasons why hunting in general is loosing participants.  All are valid reasons to those who posted them, and there are certainly many more that any of us could come up with.

The reality of the situation seems to be that the world is a very different place today than it was 15 or 30 years ago.  We all have many more interests competing for our time, and as mentioned previously, technological advances in television, gaming, and telecommunications work against many would-be hunters.  Also, loss of access to what used to be wide-open hunting grounds and/or the initiation of trespass fees by Big Timber only further limits recruitment of those who might become the next generation of participants in our chosen sport.  Finally, we can be our own worst enemies by setting very poor examples of "good sporting behavior", both in the field on online in forums such as this.  Tie all that in with a near doubling in the cost of fuel and nearly a decade of economic decline in the country, a general and widespread increase in obesity and loss of fitness in the general population, and it should surprise no one that fewer and fewer hunters are returning for a 25% chance of bagging a buck.  You can get way better odds at a craps table, and the drinks are free.

[boneaddict]

If the parents cant afford to go, then I'm betting that might sway the kids.  If its not the fees, then its life itself, gas for the tank etc.   How many opt to not buy a license but shoot something anyway.   Really, how accurate are those numbers?

Why do people hunt these days, that's another question???

Was posting this then FishnFur nailed it.   

[coachcw]

to sum it up there's to many sissies being raised by there moms and the younger generation of hunter arnt willing to work hard for a good experience .

[LeviD1]

to sum it up there's to many sissies being raised by there moms and the younger generation of hunter arnt willing to work hard for a good experience .

I agree with fishn. Haha but I also agree with this. Funny way to put it but I think its true to 

[hunt6226]

I agree with coach. not near enough dads willing to take the time and effort to take the kids out. easier to buy them computer games.

[pd]

This is interesting. I will have to re-read it. Question for the author: This was written in reference to what?  I seemed to have missed the first half of the show, any can't follow the storyline.

[tgomez]

I take my 8 year old all the time!! But the topic remindes me to "pass it down." The future of hunting depends on us sharing our knowlege with, and getting young kids intersted and involved in HUNTING. less hunters= higher tag prices.💰💵 MY SON=MY HUNTING BUDDY

[cbond3318]

I take my 8 year old all the time!! But the topic remindes me to "pass it down." The future of hunting depends on us sharing our knowlege with, and getting young kids intersted and involved in HUNTING. less hunters= higher tag prices.💰💵 MY SON=MY HUNTING BUDDY

  I cannot wait until my boys are tagging along. I just pray I have learned enough by then to shorten their learning curve.

Is it bad a  side of me gets a little excited to see a decline in interest? Obviously losing enough interest to impact my way of life would be terrible but I have met enough jacks in the outdoors to welcome some self culling trends.

[boneaddict]

That's the juxtaposition of hunting.  We all want to be alone on the mountain, but we want enough lobby that we won't lose our rights.

[JackOfAllTrades]

Could the decline in hunters also be due to price of tags, less youth hunters, etc.....  Your assessment seems a little one sided and centered around quality of hunt.  Though I don't disagree that quality of hunt may be a part of it....I don't agree it is all of it. 

Price of tags, less public land (private timber pay to play), less youth hunting, gated roads, ect. ect. ect.....all play a role in smaller total number of hunters.   

I believe that there are other factors to the decline of hunting/hunters.  Generational changes are in effect. Too many 'greenies and tree huggers'. Vegitarianism and the like. Heaven forbid if your son or daughter in the city mentions hunting with a 'GUN' at school! They'd be counseled and expelled! OMG lets save the Spotted Owl, so we'll close these roads and limit access year round. Or charge for access during hunting seasons. Logging reductions in various areas have in ways, had effect on forage. Reduction of predator hunting with hounds, has likely lead to more fawn kill. -Quite possibly decreasing the 'good hunter experience' you mention. But I don't think its all down to not forcing 'Draw Only' hunting privileges.  If I lived in a state that was draw only, I'd move.   

-Steve

[Chesapeake]

I think I can speak to some of this, as I'm a hunter, with 2 boys (8 and 10) coming up into the ranks.

Hunters Ed was a crazy pain in the you know what. It actually took almost a year to get it done. There are not many classes, they book up fast, and they are a few hours for 4 or 5 week nights and then a Saturday or Sunday field test. Seems easy enough till you cant find a class within a 40 minute drive, they start about the time you get off work, and there is no way to get the kid from after school care, get them fed, to the class, then get homework done, and to bed before 10 pm. I had to take an hour vacation each day for a week, eat fast food on the way to class, and have the kid do homework on the drive home after the class ended at 8pm.

We got it done, and you can bet I'll do the same for the next one when he's 9, but it took some commitment and a flexible work schedule to get it done.

Then we have the "youth" tags. There isn't anything interesting there for a 10 year old boy. They don't want to shoot does, they want bucks they can tell their friends about. The only buck tags they get are for forkeys in a 3 point unit.

Then we have the seasons and school. I cant take my kid out of school much. They can only miss so many days. The seasons are so short they get a few weekend days for elk, and a few weekend days for deer. So they get to spend 6 or 8 days in the field and their lucky to see some legal animals to even keep their interest.

It sure makes it stressful on me. Its hard enough in this state just to find yourself a legal deer and legal elk to shoot at. Its exponentially harder to try and find a young kid a bull or buck. So then your trying to keep them interested in all the critters and sights and sounds, the "entire experience" that they wont understand for another 20 years or so. Meanwhile your stressing cause your supposed the be the "DAD" and you cant even find your kid a legal buck to shoot.

I don't know what I'll do in 2 years when I have two little hunters to try and help.

I can understand why folks give it up and don't bring their kids into it. Success rates below 20% and overcrowded woods make it no fun. What's the guy that only gets an elk every 4 or 5 years supposed to do with a kid on his hip? I get an elk almost every year and I don't have a clue. I'm hoping like heck the kid draws a decent tag he has a decent chance to fill. I'm not sure we stand a chance at getting him an elk during the regular season.

   

[JackOfAllTrades]

I'll agree that it is a bit more difficult to bring kids to hunt camp than it was when I was younger. I have two sons approaching 21 and 23. Their first deer harvests were doe's.  I mandated first takes to be with iron sights within 100yds. After that, they got scopes. Hunter-Ed wasn't too bad, as long as the parent keeps up on offerings and is prompt for sign-up. Done in a week! Hunting seasons, allowed for the first weekend trip plus one day, then a quick run home to get them back in school. Another quick run home to get them for the second weekend. Incentive for both, (only achieved by one), was to hold straight A's, and get to take one week off school to hunt. But he made arrangements with his teachers and brought his homework with him. Hunt a good day, and while I made dinner, he'd hit the books. No Rummy, (that kid kicked my tail!), No Fire, until the homework was done. Thank goodness they didn't play Football. There would have likely been NO hunting in the fall. They played Baseball and Soccer for school and private teams. Coaches Do Not like missing players during season! (Plus I paid dearly for them to be on private league/teams.) We felt it was important for them to play team sports. Interaction with other kids/people has them well rounded for the career world where everything isn't perfect.  Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Did my parents think of/do this as much with me? Nope.  Now that the boys are finished/almost finished with vocational school, One starting a new career, One working nearly full time while attending school, it is difficult for them to get the time off for a lengthy stretch to hunt. I only had the eldest for three days in hunt camp last season. He got his first buck! Many of these challenges have lead the youngest to be a very accomplished Waterfowl hunter locally. Load the gear, and inside an hour, he's in the blind. He's found his niche.  Times are changing, and if we as parents don't recognize the need for higher education, that brings along the impacts to scheduling and learning to hunt at a younger age, are sourly mistaken that career opportunities for C+ average high school grads are just hanging off trees.

The key is, to be smart as a parent. Plan, adjust. Make it happen at any age. Just getting them out there is the first step. Some take to it. Some don't. Make the experience a good one. Teach! Know that it's not all about the kill/harvest. Like Bone said, there are opportunities a plenty, even on public ground. If it was easy, EVERYONE would do it.

-Steve