Is a 3x restriction good?

[vandeman17]

Tough call 

I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %

Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw

I see a lot of big 2x2's actually but I agree with you. Maybe it would be a master hunter type hunt with the instructions of holding out for age class... heck I don't know. All I know is that I think something needs to be done to keep from a 2x2 becoming a dominant gene in some areas. 

[grundy53]

The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?

The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies.  The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.

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One significant difference is I don't think there are any whitetails that top out below 4 pts

While I agree with you there are mature whitetails that have less than 4 points.



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[grundy53]

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.

Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" 

I wouldn't go to any buck if it were me, but I would go with at least a limited harvest of some of the two points. The big issue I see is that it opens up the possibility that most of the hunters would instead shoot immature two points that aren't the issue instead of the mature two's as intended. 

I agree.

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[Jonathan_S]

The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?

The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies.  The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.

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One significant difference is I don't think there are any whitetails that top out below 4 pts

While I agree with you there are mature whitetails that have less than 4 points.



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Can't see the picture...is it that big spike?

[grundy53]

No. Two different bucks. 2 point with eyeguards and 2 point with an eyeguard on one side.

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[Jonathan_S]

Oh I've seen that picture before  super rare

[bobcat]

Tough call 

I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %

Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw

I see a lot of big 2x2's actually but I agree with you. Maybe it would be a master hunter type hunt with the instructions of holding out for age class... heck I don't know. All I know is that I think something needs to be done to keep from a 2x2 becoming a dominant gene in some areas. 

First, is there any proof that this actually is happening? And second, as I said before, why does it matter? Is it only because it's frustrating as a hunter to see a big mature buck that can't be shot because it doesn't have the required number of points? Or is there a biological reason why mature two points are bad?

[vandeman17]

Tough call 

I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %

Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw

I see a lot of big 2x2's actually but I agree with you. Maybe it would be a master hunter type hunt with the instructions of holding out for age class... heck I don't know. All I know is that I think something needs to be done to keep from a 2x2 becoming a dominant gene in some areas. 

First, is there any proof that this actually is happening? And second, as I said before, why does it matter? Is it only because it's frustrating as a hunter to see a big mature buck that can't be shot because it doesn't have the required number of points? Or is there a biological reason why mature two points are bad?

I can't find the article but its not so much of them being two points, its just that we are cultivating and almost growing a certain gene. It makes no difference what size it is, but more so that only one sector of the population is being passed up. Short term, not a big issue but if you do it for too long, then it becomes more of a problem because then you have effected the entire genetic pool.

[gallion_t]

There are a few 2x2 permits for muzzle-loader in SW Washington to help with the issue of mature 2 points.

As far as the 3pt restriction go I dont think you can go to any buck at all, but I am not sure a permanent 3pt rule is the best solution. Maybe switch it up 3 years when they redo the regs. 3pt restriction for 3 years, then spike and 2pt restriction 3 years. I am not a biologist by any means, but that seems it would help balance out the population a little bit.

[Karl Blanchard]

What lots of guys call mature two points are usually just young bucks with good genetics.  Ive seen some absolute whopper 2pts over the years, so they are def out there but most of the pics guys post and some of the "big old dude" bucks I have seen taken on the 2x2 only tags, are nothing more than 1.5-2.5 year old bucks.  Unfortunately with the amount of hunters in this state compared to the number of mule deer, there has to be strict guidelines in order to keep our OTC seasons.  This means, antler point restrictions and short seasons.  Alternative is permit only for rifle with an any buck bag limit.  Our mule deer numbers are historically low, killing off all the spikes and two points along with all the 3pt or better bucks would not help our deer one bit.  Aggressive predator control however would.  Kill a coyote, save a fawn!

[BOWHUNTER45]

Since we seem to be talking about 2 pt instead of 3 pts I have a problem in one of my favorite hunting spots ..the area I spend most of my time in hunting blacktails has always been 2pt minimum .... all the sudden they decide to make it any buck .. Why would they do this ? This area is going to be ruined from over hunting ..When I say over hunting I mean people who never hunted it before will now be shooting up the hill side .. I wish they would make it 3 pt ...then a lot of hunters would not bother  I have no desire to kill a spike ..I would rather shoot a doe if I want meat ..

[bobdog86]

I still contend that, at least in a couple units in the SE, having a select permit/draw for youths and/or senior wouldn't be too much to ask for. I am a fan of the 3 pt min rule, but there's a lot of 2 pts running around. 

[bobcat]

There actually are permits for 2x2 only mule deer in units 133, 136, 139, and 142.

[bobdog86]

There actually are permits for 2x2 only mule deer in units 133, 136, 139, and 142.

Great, then the precedence is set, maybe they'll expand the permits to a couple other gmu's.

[Buck Rub Jr]

This guy looked pretty mature to me but he may be regressing. His body was much bigger compared to the other buck, harder to tell from the pics. Went up last weekend as well and had a little bachelor group of three nice 2 pts run next to us. Were the only bucks we saw that trip. Sorry about the last pic quality, took it with my cell, shows a decent comparison of their body size. We have come across a lot of dandy 2 pt muleys up there. Big and heavy racks.