Update: Help for Okanogan Mule Deer

[idahohuntr]

It's hard for me to believe that the only thing mentioned causing the drop in herd numbers is hunting.

Well, maybe it's not hard to believe.

 

If you read the article you will see they also discuss summer drought and fire damage to winter range as well.  They also mention an active predator/prey study being done by UW - so they should have more data on predation effects as well. 

It's hard for me to believe that the only thing mentioned causing the drop in herd numbers is hunting.

Well, maybe it's not hard to believe.

 

If you read the article you will see they also discuss summer drought and fire damage to winter range as well.  They also mention an active predator/prey study being done by UW - so they should have more data on predation effects as well.

The fact that the bio does not mention at all that predators "may" bare part of the blame shows the bias this particular biologist has always demonstrated, and is example #24,875 why the customers (hunters) have zero faith in the supplier (WDFW).

And, quite frankly, the way you responded in defense of the article shows your own leaning.

I'm not defending anything - I'm pointing out inarguable facts which were omitted in the above statement. 

There is plenty of bias when it comes to game management - sticking to facts will allow for more informed decisions. 

I read the article. He's blaming the decreased fawn/doe ratio on summer drought and fire damage.

The Carlton Complex Fire of 2014 damaged large tracts of mule deer winter range, burning bitterbrush and other shrubs that provide winter forage for deer in the Methow Valley. Although the range is slowly recovering, the fire’s lingering effects may contribute to a lower fawn/doe ratio, Fitkin said.

“My suspicion is productivity is down. The combined effects of summer drought and fires on the winter range is at least partially responsible for the dip in fawn/doe ratios,” Fitkin said. “When deer are nutritionally stressed, they don’t have as many fawns. It makes it harder for does. They may not have as many twins, or may even reabsorb the fetus.”


The part about the predator study is there, but it's ultra-vague. No details at all, and it's a "separate" study conducted by the UW.

To conduct the research, biologists are locating mule deer does in the Methow Valley that have been captured and fitted with GPS radio collars as part of a separate study of predator and prey interactions being conducted by the University of Washington. About 80 does currently have collars.

Don't hold me to it, but I'm pretty sure that the word "predator" was used one time in that whole article.

My conclusion....lots of talk about hunting being the cause of the decline in the population. Very little talk about habitat related issues and almost none about predator population.

@idahohuntr  don't get me wrong. Usually I'm the one getting blasted for supporting the WDFW, but this is ridiculous, almost comical, that predator affects were not even mentioned as a potential cause for herd decline(they weren't...that's a fact).

I don't disagree that predators should have been discussed in the context of declines - the predator/prey study clearly implies it's a concern so I have no clue why they didn't discuss it.  However, habitat issues seem pretty clear (and were directly mentioned)...and folks don't like to admit it, but hunter harvest is a very significant factor in many hunted populations...the lower buck:doe ratios certainly support that observation.

[KFhunter]

"ohhh theres too many hunters!"   Ya, no.

Hunter numbers are dropping fast, predators are taking our place.  The methow habitat decline is short lived and temporary, we need to lower predator numbers and continue habitat restoration efforts for sure, I'm never against improving habitat where feasible and viable.

There's hardly any young kids getting into hunting, xbox and social media has replaced the outdoors. 

"hunter decline" top 5 articles on a google search:

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/593001800/decline-in-hunters-threatens-how-u-s-pays-for-conservation

https://www.outdoorlife.com/why-we-are-losing-hunters-and-how-to-fix-it

https://www.biggamelogic.com/Articles-News/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/603/A-Closer-Look-At-The-Decline-In-Hunter-Participation

http://www.trcp.org/2017/09/07/confirmed-decline-hunter-participation-call-action-sportsmen/

http://www.petersenshunting.com/editorial/the-hunter-decline-and-how-we-can-fix-it/272064

[grundy53]

You're forgetting that with Fitkins line of thinking, adding doe tags will get that buck to doe ratio closer. I truly believe we'll never see the true muley numbers even close to where they once were.

Back to the main point this thread: Where is all the donated money that was supposed to be used to plant bitterbrush after the original Carlton Complex Fire?

Curious to know where the money went also.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[bearpaw]

You're forgetting that with Fitkins line of thinking, adding doe tags will get that buck to doe ratio closer. I truly believe we'll never see the true muley numbers even close to where they once were.

Back to the main point this thread: Where is all the donated money that was supposed to be used to plant bitterbrush after the original Carlton Complex Fire?

I was told someone was asking about that money, it is in the WFW checking account (Chase Bank). If I remember correctly the bitter brush that was being raised accidentally died. It was decided to send the money to the methow chapter of the mule deer foundation, they said they would accept the funds and eartag them for habitat improvement, but that never happened because I was unclear about what amount to send? It was a busy time for me and I forgot to pursue it when I later had time. I'm quite busy right now with year end reports and then cougar hunting again soon, but if someone could total up the auctions we did and give me a number, I've got the checkbook and I could send a check if the methow chapter of MDF still wants it.

[wolfbait]

 As far back as 2004 we started seeing the decline in the herds, and we were seeing a few wolves also, actually quite a few wolves when we started sharing info. Now here we are 15 years later and wolves have infested WA where ever they were dumped, some places a little thicker than others.

Year after year since 2009 I shared stories on here about the wolves decimating the deer,, and of course I got plenty of push back form the pro-wolf crowd, now, like parts of ID, MT, and Wyoming where wolves are thick there are very few ungulates.

The damage as been done, you might say the pro-wolf crowd won!

WA will never pull out of the over predation of it's game herds, WDFW will slow play any true measure of control. What has and is happening in the Methow, Okanogan and Ferry county etc. is happening in other parts of Wa. When you start seeing your game herds moving to town or homes, places they haven't before, you know you have a wolf problem.

The decline in ungulates is not about habitat, it is all about an over population of predators, with the wolf being the most destructive.

Hunt while you can, because WDFW has plans for no hunting in the future.

[jackelope]

This is the listing of auctions that were done and a list of items I still have available for fundraising efforts.

Mule Deer Auctions
Auction...Price.....Buyer..............Payment...Item Status...Item Description...
1...........$250.....Rainier10...............Check.......Received......Rainshadow Knife
2...........$200.....50CalJim...............Check.......Received......Elknut Outdoors Vortex bino's
3...........$175.....Jacque..................Check.......Received......Phelps Game Calls EZ Estrus Elk Call
4...........$150.....Southpole..............Check.......Received.....Phelps Game Calls EZ Estrus Elk Call #2
5...........$100.....Boss .300 winmag...Paypal.......Received......Extreme Elk Magazine
6...........$165.....jrebel....................Paypal......Received......EVO Outdoors Tenzing weapon case
7...........$125.....mtncook................Paypal......Received......Bearpaw Outfitters Hunting Books
8...........$350.....ELKBURGER...........Check.......Organized....Western Life Outfitters Trail Ride
9...........$100.....vandeman17...........Paypal......Received......OnxMAPS GPS Chip
10.........$170.....Gringo31................Check......Organized....Nature's Way Taxidermy Euro mount
11.........$  70.....go4steelhd.............Paypal.......Received......Elknut Outdoors DVD's
12.........$210.....bearpaw.................Check.......Ordered.......Hayden Lambson art "The Ladies Man"
13.........$  60.....Fastass350.............Paypal......Sent...........Shot Glass, Cocktail Glass (missing), Beer Tankard
14.........$  55.....Fastass350.............Paypal......Sent...........Bino System, Black Logo Hat
15.........$  70.....Fastass350.............Paypal......Sent...........Travel Mug, Coffee Mug (missing)
16.........$  25.....Pygmy...................Paypal......Sent...........Tin Mule Deer Sign
17.........$200.....Rainier10................Check......Ordered.......Hayden Lambson art "A Breath of Glory"
18.........$250.....GUscottie...............Paypal......Ordered.......Hayden Lambson art "The Bachelor's Pad"
19.........$100.....Southpole..............Check.......Sent...........MDF Bag, MDF Black Logo Hat
20.........$105.....Orion88.................Check.......Received......OnxMAPS GPS Chip #2
21.........$205.....go4steelhd.............Paypal.......Sent...........MDF Cap, XXL Shirt, phone app
22.........$  65.....Romulus1297..........Check.......Received......Handmade Broom
23.........$105.....Grundy53...............Paypal......Messaged.....Choice: MDF mug, glass, or cap
Sale.......$450.....MtnMuley...............Check.......Ordered.......The Bachelor’s Pad - A Breath of Glory
Sale.......$  40.....jackelope..............................Received......OnxMAPS Phone App

Bitterbrush Plants to be Shipped in the Fall
On behalf of Go4steelhd……250 to the Methow Planting Team
On behalf of Grundy53………250 to the Methow Planting Team

Remaining Items To Sell or Auction
4500...Bitterbrush Plants
6........OnxMAPS Phone Apps
1........Mule Deer Horn Earings
1........Mule Deer Necklace & Earings
4........Mule Deer Playing Cards
6........MDF Key Rings
5........MDF Baseball Caps
5........MDF Coffee Mug
1........MDF Frosted Shot Glass
1........MDF Frosted Beer Tankard
5........MDF Frosted Glass
24.......MDF Drinking Glass
12.......MDF Wine Glass
1........Set of 4 Stone Mule Deer Coasters
6........MDF Window Decal
1........Set of 3 MDF Golf Balls
8........MDF Tall Beer Glass
1........MDF License Plate Holder
1........MDF Black T-Shirt XXL

There is $3795.00 here according to the numbers I highlighted. I've texted and emailed the Mule Deer Foundation Washington state rep. I will report back on what I'm told from here.

[jackelope]

This is the listing of auctions that were done and a list of items I still have available for fundraising efforts.

Mule Deer Auctions
Auction...Price.....Buyer..............Payment...Item Status...Item Description...
1...........$250.....Rainier10...............Check.......Received......Rainshadow Knife
2...........$200.....50CalJim...............Check.......Received......Elknut Outdoors Vortex bino's
3...........$175.....Jacque..................Check.......Received......Phelps Game Calls EZ Estrus Elk Call
4...........$150.....Southpole..............Check.......Received.....Phelps Game Calls EZ Estrus Elk Call #2
5...........$100.....Boss .300 winmag...Paypal.......Received......Extreme Elk Magazine
6...........$165.....jrebel....................Paypal......Received......EVO Outdoors Tenzing weapon case
7...........$125.....mtncook................Paypal......Received......Bearpaw Outfitters Hunting Books
8...........$350.....ELKBURGER...........Check.......Organized....Western Life Outfitters Trail Ride
9...........$100.....vandeman17...........Paypal......Received......OnxMAPS GPS Chip
10.........$170.....Gringo31................Check......Organized....Nature's Way Taxidermy Euro mount
11.........$  70.....go4steelhd.............Paypal.......Received......Elknut Outdoors DVD's
12.........$210.....bearpaw.................Check.......Ordered.......Hayden Lambson art "The Ladies Man"
13.........$  60.....Fastass350.............Paypal......Sent...........Shot Glass, Cocktail Glass (missing), Beer Tankard
14.........$  55.....Fastass350.............Paypal......Sent...........Bino System, Black Logo Hat
15.........$  70.....Fastass350.............Paypal......Sent...........Travel Mug, Coffee Mug (missing)
16.........$  25.....Pygmy...................Paypal......Sent...........Tin Mule Deer Sign
17.........$200.....Rainier10................Check......Ordered.......Hayden Lambson art "A Breath of Glory"
18.........$250.....GUscottie...............Paypal......Ordered.......Hayden Lambson art "The Bachelor's Pad"
19.........$100.....Southpole..............Check.......Sent...........MDF Bag, MDF Black Logo Hat
20.........$105.....Orion88.................Check.......Received......OnxMAPS GPS Chip #2
21.........$205.....go4steelhd.............Paypal.......Sent...........MDF Cap, XXL Shirt, phone app
22.........$  65.....Romulus1297..........Check.......Received......Handmade Broom
23.........$105.....Grundy53...............Paypal......Messaged.....Choice: MDF mug, glass, or cap
Sale.......$450.....MtnMuley...............Check.......Ordered.......The Bachelor’s Pad - A Breath of Glory
Sale.......$  40.....jackelope..............................Received......OnxMAPS Phone App

Bitterbrush Plants to be Shipped in the Fall
On behalf of Go4steelhd……250 to the Methow Planting Team
On behalf of Grundy53………250 to the Methow Planting Team

Remaining Items To Sell or Auction
4500...Bitterbrush Plants
6........OnxMAPS Phone Apps
1........Mule Deer Horn Earings
1........Mule Deer Necklace & Earings
4........Mule Deer Playing Cards
6........MDF Key Rings
5........MDF Baseball Caps
5........MDF Coffee Mug
1........MDF Frosted Shot Glass
1........MDF Frosted Beer Tankard
5........MDF Frosted Glass
24.......MDF Drinking Glass
12.......MDF Wine Glass
1........Set of 4 Stone Mule Deer Coasters
6........MDF Window Decal
1........Set of 3 MDF Golf Balls
8........MDF Tall Beer Glass
1........MDF License Plate Holder
1........MDF Black T-Shirt XXL

There is $3795.00 here according to the numbers I highlighted. I've texted and emailed the Mule Deer Foundation Washington state rep. I will report back on what I'm told from here.

Wheels are turning.

[bearpaw]

Thanks Jackelope! 

[Skyvalhunter]

Perhaps an email to Mr. Fitkins @ Scott.Fitkin@dwf.wa.gov might be worth a try

[bigmacc]

I remember my dad telling me that back in the 40,s and 50,s that when you purchased your deer tag and lic. that sometimes you would get a bag of seeds to plant while you were out hunting or hiking. I also remember stopping in and visiting the Game department folks we knew and them giving us feed to drop during bad winters or seeds to plant while out and about, they always had both on hand, you just needed to ask......Key words-GAME DEPARTMENT,   sorry. There are MANY REASONS that contribute to the downfall of our deer and elk in this state, but if you really sit and think about it AND think outside the box with an open mind while disregarding wallops by Mother Nature(which they also mis- handle I guess, sell more doe tags etc ) most of those reasons in some way, shape or form always circle back to the WDFW and their mis- management of our herds. In a nutshell, the WDFW along with the politics of this state has done more harm to our deer and elk herds than anything.

[huntnphool]

I remember my dad telling me that back in the 40,s and 50,s that when you purchased your deer tag and lic. that sometimes you would get a bag of seeds to plant while you were out hunting or hiking. I also remember stopping in and visiting the Game department folks we knew and them giving us feed to drop during bad winters or seeds to plant while out and about, they always had both on hand, you just needed to ask......Key words-GAME DEPARTMENT,   sorry.

 Problem now is, those in the field hunting are intellectually inferior to those in the office with their liberal utopia degrees making decisions, and don't understand the complex relationship between ungulates and habitat. You can't simply spread seed around willy nilly, there must be studies done to maximize seed/plant efficiency vs buck/doe ratio's, managers to oversee each seed/seedling is planted in the most optimal location....what are ya, new?

[bigmacc]

I remember my dad telling me that back in the 40,s and 50,s that when you purchased your deer tag and lic. that sometimes you would get a bag of seeds to plant while you were out hunting or hiking. I also remember stopping in and visiting the Game department folks we knew and them giving us feed to drop during bad winters or seeds to plant while out and about, they always had both on hand, you just needed to ask......Key words-GAME DEPARTMENT,   sorry.

 Problem now is, those in the field hunting are intellectually inferior to those in the office with their liberal utopia degrees making decisions, and don't understand the complex relationship between ungulates and habitat. You can't simply spread seed around willy nilly, there must be studies done to maximize seed/plant efficiency vs buck/doe ratio's, managers to oversee each seed/seedling is planted in the most optimal location....what are ya, new?

  , guess I need to get out more

[no.cen.wa]

I went to two public wd-FISH-w meetings recently, the wdfw has screwed up fishing so much and so many fisherman were there I had to wait for separate groups at end to talk to the gameys. 2 straight hours of bitching fisherman one right after the other,, it was interesting but nearly a waste of time. I did tell them my thoughts on the Methow mule deer, and predators, don't know if they heard me. They did say to attend the meetings this year when they ask for public input on the upcoming seasons. It is hunters only and you have a chance to speak your piece.
Sorry, I'm old and will be in Arizona till April :chuckle:but will see if I can make one when I get home.
So there you are, I've tried, have you?
John G

[woodswalker]

Perhaps an email to Mr. Fitkins @ Scott.Fitkin@dwf.wa.gov might be worth a try

Mr Tin Ear himself...

[Skyvalhunter]

I am curious as to how many people emailed Mr.  Fitkin and what kind of response they got