Proper way to measure 777 loose powder

[Westside88]

Hello everyone, as I've gotten to shoot my new muzzy more I'm starting to get to the point of wanting to keep good notes on accuracy and velocity of different combos. My starting point has been 300 grain bloodlines with 120 grains of 777 2f or 3f. I started here largely based on advice I've received on here and also it's a listed load in my owners manual. I'm wondering the proper way to ensure that 120 grains is in fact 120 grains. I've been using a pour top cap on my powder to fill quick load tubes with graduated marks on them. Yesterday I filled one then poured to a different one to check consistency of the marks. It seemed less so I played with it a bit and you seem to get a fair amount of settling by pouring or tapping the tubes to get settling. So my question is should you tap the tubes and or other powder measuring devices to creat the most dense load in the space available?  Also 3f seems to settle a little more due to the finer granules. I plan to measure velocity to compare the 2f vs 3f in a given volume.I want to make sure I'm as consistent as possible thanks

[Sabotloader]

Hello everyone, as I've gotten to shoot my new muzzy more I'm starting to get to the point of wanting to keep good notes on accuracy and velocity of different combos. My starting point has been 300 grain bloodlines with 120 grains of 777 2f or 3f. I started here largely based on advice I've received on here and also it's a listed load in my owners manual. I'm wondering the proper way to ensure that 120 grains is in fact 120 grains. I've been using a pour top cap on my powder to fill quick load tubes with graduated marks on them. Yesterday I filled one then poured to a different one to check consistency of the marks. It seemed less so I played with it a bit and you seem to get a fair amount of settling by pouring or tapping the tubes to get settling. So my question is should you tap the tubes and or other powder measuring devices to creat the most dense load in the space available?  Also 3f seems to settle a little more due to the finer granules. I plan to measure velocity to compare the 2f vs 3f in a given volume.I want to make sure I'm as consistent as possible thanks

With BP and the BP subs excluding BH-209 - being extremely accurate is not as critical as using smokeless powders.  The most import part in my mind is to consistent in what ever method you use.

I use a very common adjustable brass loading device. For me it has proved itself in durability and ease of use.

 

I load 110 grain so of T7-3f, as calibrated by the volume measure.  I never have measured it for actual weight and really do not care to.  I load the measure the same way every time - fill the measure above the line to cut and then tap the measure against the powder jug 4 times to induce settling - then cut with the funnel slide.  It is my belief that if I continue to be consistent each time - my shots will be consistent.

With BP and subs being over or under by 5-7 grains is not going to show any measurable difference on the target.

Now if I were shooting targets for money that hole routine would change  probably would not be shooting 110 grains and probably would weigh each and every charge. I would also have to weigh each bullet and check the fit of each sabot. I would also treat the bore after differently than I do for hunting - ah heck! a lot of things would change if I were making money.

Here is a table I built several years ago when it seemed really important to me in my mind to know more than just where the bullet hit. It might show some of the information you might be looking for.  It was compiled using a 45 cal ML but you still might be able to use some of the information.

[Westside88]

Great information, thank you for sharing. I find the differences from 110 grains to 120 particularly interesting. I guess this type of info is why knowing the actual velocities you're achieving as well as the type of accuracy you can achieve with a given charge is so helpful. That type of powder measurer looks like a good way to go

[M_ray]

The powder measurer that Sabotloader posted is the only way to accurately load IMO ... thats the one you want!

[duramax]

Agreed that is the one I have used for years.

[Westside88]

I have one on the way, thanks guys

[Jellymon]

Always stick with the same powder measure once you have it. I have two, a Thompson center one that's accurate, and a traditions one that's over 10 grains off.

[MountainDevil54]

This might help as well. I personally see no reason for such a huge dose of T7. I'd start around 90 and go from there and make sure you swab the bore clean between each shot.

[Sabotloader]

Westside88

Since you are shooting caps there is no real reason to need to swab the bore.  Caps, shooting T7 does not cause a 'crud ring' especially if you are using a synthetic bore oil.  And shooting T7-3f burns even cleaner.

With petroleum based oils or solutions with Teflon in them you may get some form of 'crud ring'

[JJB11B]

Sabotloader, do you clean the bore every few shots when you are on the range? If not what am I doing wrong? it seems that the 3rd round seems to be a lot tighter getting it rammed home than the 1st and second ones.
I shoot T7 FFF and I use Hoppes No9 bore cleaner for Black Powder to clean my gun.

[MountainDevil54]

yep even with #11 caps reloading can get hard. I shoot mainly a traditional rifle with a #11 and with a greased patch, you'll still get a tight booger after 2 or 3 shots. Theres also the reverse crud ring with #11 cap and colder 209 primers. It starts now at the MUZZLE rather than at the breech end of the barrel.

[elkboy]

I use the same powder measure that Sabotloader does.  I have not been tapping to induce settling, and I achieve good accuracy (well, for me!).  I will probably start tapping to settle now, though, knowing that Sabot does...

As for swabbing between shots, I always do: two wet patches, one dry patch, then fire a cap to dry the bore.  Then reload and repeat. 

Good luck this fall!  Who's getting excited?!

[Westside88]

Thanks for the replies. For those that think 120 is too much powder can I ask why that is? I arrived at that starting point based off Knight's information. I understand that I may achieve a better group with less and that burning more than you need is unnecessary and might make guns dirty. Just wondering if their may be something else I'm missing.           

Currently it's grouping very well. Three shot groups are very good, usually touching each other or very close to it. Any variance is probably me shooting open sights for the first time in a long time. I've shot as many as 6 without swapping without noticing a drop in accuracy. Loading really doesn't even seem too bad. I was mostly interested to see where it became a problem. I've also tried swabbing every shot or every three. I honestly don't think I can tell between every shot vs every three. Every three is my preference, when I shot 6 I gave it a more thorough cleaning before continuing.

 I do appreciate all the input. As for tapping to induce settling, I just want to be as consistent as possible and wanted to make sure I wasn't overloading my charge beyond where I thought it was.

[Sabotloader]

Sabotloader, do you clean the bore every few shots when you are on the range?

Usually I do not - I just have not found it necessary when shooting caps even using heavy bullets and stout charges of T7. Normally but not always the 'crud ring' effect is accentuated by the powder burning what might be in your bore causing a sticky substance right at the top of the powder column.  I believe this is normally petroleum based oil residue and/or Teflon if you might be using either of these two substances in the bore.

If not what am I doing wrong? it seems that the 3rd round seems to be a lot tighter getting it rammed home than the 1st and second ones.[/quote]

I would ask 'where are you feeling the tightness' all the way down the bore or near the bottom of the bore? If it becomes tight all the way down the bore that might be considered normal with the build up powder residues and tight fitting load combination. 

I shoot T7 FFF and I use Hoppes No9 bore cleaner for Black Powder to clean my gun.

I do not use #9 - I have a bunch of it but long ago stopped using it as it was not effective as I thought it should be. But my #9 is not the Black Powder variety.

I use three products in my bores and I have not ideal if it is meaningful or not - it just works for me.  I use regular blue Windex with ammonia as a patch cleaner, then Birchwood Casey 2-in-1 Bore cleaner and finally Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner, which is a synthetic oil.

Not sure any of this is going to help you but I do hope you find an answer.

[Sabotloader]

Thanks for the replies. For those that think 120 is too much powder can I ask why that is? I arrived at that starting point based off Knight's information. I understand that I may achieve a better group with less and that burning more than you need is unnecessary and might make guns dirty. Just wondering if their may be something else I'm missing.           

Currently it's grouping very well. Three shot groups are very good, usually touching each other or very close to it. Any variance is probably me shooting open sights for the first time in a long time. I've shot as many as 6 without swapping without noticing a drop in accuracy. Loading really doesn't even seem too bad. I was mostly interested to see where it became a problem. I've also tried swabbing every shot or every three. I honestly don't think I can tell between every shot vs every three. Every three is my preference, when I shot 6 I gave it a more thorough cleaning before continuing.

 I do appreciate all the input. As for tapping to induce settling, I just want to be as consistent as possible and wanted to make sure I wasn't overloading my charge beyond where I thought it was.

Number ONE best thing you can do from shot to shot!

[MtnMuley]

Nobody has mentioned measuring the powder on an electronic scale.   I want my charges as similar as possible, so I measure them on my electronic scale to the 1/10th of a grain.  Is this wrong??

[jjhunter]

I have always measured by volume and had great success.   My muzzleloader shoots so good, I would be scared to try anything else.   90 grains of loose 777 3fg for me.

[whacker1]

I have always measured by volume and had great success.   My muzzleloader shoots so good, I would be scared to try anything else.   90 grains of loose 777 3fg for me.

My only issues are with operator error with peep sites vs the consistency in the weapon.  chronograph is relatively consistent.  and scoped for load development a few years ago and had very consistent shots.  I wouldn't deviate from measurement by volume

[jjhunter]

I also clean between every shot - like, really clean.

I have noticed that a clean bore will pile them into a tight cluster at 100 yards.   If I shoot a fouled bore, it will also shoot an equally tight cluster, but the point of impact will shift 3" or so.   

I decided that I like hunting with a clean bore so I stick with the cleaning routine between each shot. 

[steeleywhopper]

when you guys say clean the bore are you taking out the breech plug and cleaning it or are you leaving the breech plug in and running the rod down the barrel with a wet patch?

[usmc74]

I just wet patch the bore.  Then dry patch.

[lokidog]

Nobody has mentioned measuring the powder on an electronic scale.   I want my charges as similar as possible, so I measure them on my electronic scale to the 1/10th of a grain.  Is this wrong??

I've always done this.  I throw five or six loads with the volume measurer and take the average weight to use the digital scale.