Baiting on the chopping block

[Blacktail Sniper]

I am also of the opinion that the baiting issue started with hunters having issues with baiting. 

Most non-hunters already assume baiting is illegal.  Lots of hunters even think it's illegal.  Hunters bring up the issue with WDFW and the next thing you know anti-hunters have picked up on the issue and of course they're all over it.  Anything they can take away they will.

Good points!

[westsidehntr]

I am also of the opinion that the baiting issue started with hunters having issues with baiting. 

Most non-hunters already assume baiting is illegal.  Lots of hunters even think it's illegal.  Hunters bring up the issue with WDFW and the next thing you know anti-hunters have picked up on the issue and of course they're all over it.  Anything they can take away they will.

Good points!

Maybe I'm confused. Do you think restrictions should be placed on baiting?

[Bango skank]

Here is my problem with this.  There will guaranteed be people baiting on private property, because theyll feel they can get away with it.  After all, how would they get caught unless somebody is trespassing?  That will give them an unfair advantage over their law abiding neighbors, and when somebodys property borders public land theyll be luring deer onto their property, and the guys hunting the public land near them wont be able to compete.  I guarantee the jerk who hunts his couple hundred acres next to my property is going to continue baiting, and that will screw me over, but what can i do about it?  Im certainly not going to trespass to find his bait sites, and im not going to break the law myself, so if they ban baiting i just have to accept the fact that my neighbor will be illegally luring deer off my property?

[Curly]

I am also of the opinion that the baiting issue started with hunters having issues with baiting. 

Most non-hunters already assume baiting is illegal.  Lots of hunters even think it's illegal.  Hunters bring up the issue with WDFW and the next thing you know anti-hunters have picked up on the issue and of course they're all over it.  Anything they can take away they will.

Good points!

Maybe I'm confused. Do you think restrictions should be placed on baiting?

Me?  No i'm not in favor of restrictions.  I'm not in favor of hunters trying to restrict other hunters of rights.

If there is a study that proves the need for some restrictions then I'd listen, but until then they shouldn't ban baiting..........I don't think it would be the end of the world if they made a restriction on the amount of bait someone could place though if that caused most of the complaints to go away. (Maybe that would look like they did something).

[Blacktail Sniper]

I guess I don't understand the amount issue. What's that got to do with anything? So you should only be able to call ducks and geese so many times before shooting them or you can only rattle three times every hour. Doesn't make sense really does it. If you can afford to dump a truckload of food then so what and more power to you, I cant but im not against it either. Its like saying your a loud to call coyotes but I cant afford an electric call so I want to have them band for that reason, doesn't make sense again does it. Stay the course fellow hunters and stay united...

You can call once or a hundred times in an hour, rattle for 15 seconds or 45 minutes straight. When you are done, there isn't a huge pile of rotting, smelly, decaying fruit left behind.

Now, if you are dumping a truckload, but going back in and cleaning up and hauling it away, that may be different.

Just playing the devils advocate, and i'm not trying to be a jerk but if its your property should it matter? 

What if you live downwind of that truck load of rotting & decaying fruit and do not appreciate the smell?

The bottom line is, to some people, both hunters and anti-hunters, it does, regardless of where it occurs and that is the problem that needs addressed and a reasonable solution found.

One example that is often debated is road hunters vs boot hunters.

Both are legal, but yet some just can't stand the thought of a road hunter, don't consider it hunting by their personal definition, and see no reason for it.

How is that been addressed?

As a solution to try and find a mid-point for the different user groups, there are areas that are restricted to no vehicle traffic.  Now doesn't that seem like a more logical approach?

If not, it will likely be eliminated on all scales, and the end result is another method taken away, never to come back, and then on to the next issue to chip away at hunting in general.

YOU, sir, are the one chipping away at hunting! If we as hunters support ANY restrictions on ANY way of hunting, we are contributing to the anti's cause.

Are antis going to be satisfied with restrictions on baiting? NOPE!! There will always be some way of hunting they want to take away. Chipping away as you say. Unless we as hunters unify and say ALL ways of hunting should remain legal, we will continue to lose rights. This was the way of hound hunting, baiting bears, etc. Its the same as the gun control issue. Any restrictions are sliding further down that slippery slope. So YOU are part of the problem, not the solution, IMHO.

Not sure where you get that I am the enemy??

I take it that you are saying take a stand, all or none and hope that you pick correctly???

Tell me how well that worked with bait and hounds for bear??

Incase you are not aware, I spent many months contacting agencies, WDFW, Senators and Representatives trying to get legislation passed on the spring damage bears hunts and the use of bait.

So, no Sir, I am not what I consider part of the problem! If you cannot look past your own stubborness or ignorance and see that the more likely out come of a bullheaded, all or none approach such as yours to not likely be favorable for everyone, then good luck to you!

I think you are the enemy because you support helping the antis erode our rights. Interesting that you ask how well bear baiting and hound hunting, as the banning of these helps prove my point. Did the antis stop once these were banned? Nope. Will they stop when restrictions are placed on baiting? Nope! Next, will be a total ban on baiting. Your kind will say, we should ban baiting so the antis won't totally ban all hunting.

We could call them "common sense baiting restrictions." Sound familiar?

Okay then!

I Guess if you think I am am the enemy and are going to repeatly call me one, maybe that is where you would like I direct my efforts??

Because I guarantee you, I have the time and ability to put forth a very strong, articulate and convincing arguement that more than likely would be a successful effort to stop it all together!

Is that what it would take to make you happy?? Then you could say you were right??

But that isn't my goal. I do not hunt deer over bait, I really don't ever intend to.  But I would hate to see it completly taken away without some effort on our part to try and put something in place that might work and allow it to stay.

Will it stop the anti's...no, not likely. 

But at least as far as everything presented on here, it was initiated by HUNTERS, or have you not picked-up on that part yet??

You are welcome to your opinion, as am I and everyone else on here.

You can cross your arms, stomp your feet, hold your breath and demand it be your way or highway if that is how you wish to direct your energy and maybe you will succeed.

Emotions seem to win out over logic more often than not, so good luck!

[Blacktail Sniper]

I am also of the opinion that the baiting issue started with hunters having issues with baiting. 

Most non-hunters already assume baiting is illegal.  Lots of hunters even think it's illegal.  Hunters bring up the issue with WDFW and the next thing you know anti-hunters have picked up on the issue and of course they're all over it.  Anything they can take away they will.

Good points!

Maybe I'm confused. Do you think restrictions should be placed on baiting?

Well said!


Me?  No i'm not in favor of restrictions.  I'm not in favor of hunters trying to restrict other hunters of rights.

If there is a study that proves the need for some restrictions then I'd listen, but until then they shouldn't ban baiting..........I don't think it would be the end of the world if they made a restriction on the amount of bait someone could place though if that caused most of the complaints to go away. (Maybe that would look like they did something).

[YJ Guide Service]

So I see some say why not use alfalfa instead of smelly apples. So is that ok to dump 2 tons of alfalfa on the ground then since it doesn't smell. If someone dumps apples do you think in a couple weeks that is still going to be there after the season is done. I guess the question is, is it amount were talking or type of bait now. Seems like the people saying some outfitters are using to many apples but then goes on to say why not use alfalfa since it doesn't stink im confused by that comment.

[pianoman9701]

I believe more are saying that baiting on private land is pulling opportunity out of public land, regardless of the bait used. I'm unsure I see that problem, but...

[Blacktail Sniper]

I believe more are saying that baiting on private land is pulling opportunity out of public land, regardless of the bait used. I'm unsure I see that problem, but...

I think that is probably the most accurate summary as of now.

Hard to get at the core  of it because of all the emotions, and frankly, the more discussion, the more it risks blowing into a bigger issue than it might need to be.

[pianoman9701]

I'd like to see a poll.
Support Changes and How many tags went unfilled over the last five years.
Against Changes and how many tags went unfilled over the last 5 years.
Or
Support Changes and think Outfitters suck and get all my game
Against changes -Are an outfitter and are taking all their game
Or
Support Changes on Ethical Grounds. My ethics are right and you shouldn't bait
Supports Changes on Religious Grounds. Supports Using only Halal bait in case ungulates are Muslim oriented
Against Changes on Ethical grounds. My ethics get me more deer and elk
Against Changes on Religious grounds. Ship all them Muslim Ungulates back to CA and leave the damned baiting laws alone laws alone!!!

[Blacktail Sniper]

.

[jasnt]

So I see some say why not use alfalfa instead of smelly apples. So is that ok to dump 2 tons of alfalfa on the ground then since it doesn't smell. If someone dumps apples do you think in a couple weeks that is still going to be there after the season is done. I guess the question is, is it amount were talking or type of bait now. Seems like the people saying some outfitters are using to many apples but then goes on to say why not use alfalfa since it doesn't stink im confused by that comment.

i said that. When the baiting ban first was brought up one of the arguments was apples are poor nutrition for deer. Also they draw more than just deer and elk,like bear and coyotes.  Then someone brought up the smell of rotting apples. You can buy these bait apples very cheap so truck loads is cheap enough to put out way more than will be eaten. Alfalfa not so cheap, won't attract so many non target sp.   I was also specifically asking who these guides where and why are they not helping to resolve this issue and if they are what is the plan because this is how all this started to begin with

I wonder how many bear show up to those giant piles of apples?  You would think that that alone would be grounds to stop them from doing it. I'm curious what guide service is doing this truck load of apples and what they have to say about it. Do they understand what they maybe end up taking from all of use?  Why not use alfalfa?  During that later seasons when bait can be most productive deer will take alfalfa just as readily as apples and would get more benefit out of it  it wouldn't get so smelly and gross and much less likely to attract bears. 

[idahohuntr]

Email sent.

Dear WDFW Commission:
I support continuing to allow hunters in Washington State to hunt over bait for deer and elk.  I also support simple, common-sense regulations to alleviate concerns in a portion of the state where extraordinary volumes of bait are being placed and creating some conflict. I believe there are several extremely important reasons to continue to allow hunting over bait for deer and elk in Washington State. 
1.   It provides equal access to wildlife, a major tenant of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, for many youth, senior, disabled, and new hunters – which are primarily women and minorities. 
Many youth, senior, disabled or new hunters lack the physical abilities and experience to effectively hunt deer and elk on a regular basis.  Placing bait in locations where ADA compliant blinds or hunters lacking superior physical abilities can access bait sites helps increase those hunters access to the wildlife we all own.  I take several young, new, or disabled hunters out deer hunting every year on my small farm.  Their harvest rates would be extremely small if baiting were outlawed, essentially denying them access to the wildlife they own because they lack the physical capabilities of hunters like myself. 
 
2.   Baiting provides a safe way to hunt small parcels of private land or areas near more urban environments.
Baiting allows a hunter to create a hunting environment that increases the ability to hunt small parcels of land safely and effectively.  In many small hunting areas or those near urban areas there are places and directions that are simply unsafe to shoot – even short range weapons.  Creating an attraction (such as bait) allows the hunter to control the safety aspect of the hunt and still be effective.  Being able to effectively hunt small parcels of land (especially those near urban areas) also likely reduces deer/vehicle collisions which would increase if hunting over bait were not allowed.

3.   Baiting is an ethical, fair-chase method of hunting
Nothing about placing bait reduces the ability of deer or elk to detect hunters and evade them.  If wind directions shift unfavorably, if the hunter is seen or heard, or is in any way detected there is nothing about bait that will overcome the animal’s ability to detect and avoid predators – including humans.  Baiting, much like the use of calls or attractant scents, must be used in areas already inhabited by deer and elk and the setup must effectively conceal the hunter.  Contrary to some perceptions, game animals tend to be very wary about approaching bait and are usually at a much greater level of alertness in approaching baits relative to other periods of movement.  The one advantage to baiting is that it allows some influence on where the animal will stop, which can create a more ethical (and safe) shot to insure a quick and humane harvest.     
 
4.   There are no negative impacts to wildlife populations
WDFW professional staff have reiterated multiple times there are no biological concerns with baiting deer and elk in Washington State.  If anything, I suspect a number of non-target animals benefit from supplemental nutrition.  At minimum, there are no negative biological effects.
 
5.   Baiting is a critical tool to improve hunter recruitment and retention
Baiting, in allowing a more controlled and safe environment to ethically harvest an animal, moderately increases harvest success for youth, senior, disabled, and new hunters relative to not being able to hunt over bait.  As many outdoor writers have noted, hunter’s progress through various stages as they mature –the first stage is simply being successful in harvesting game.  The more early successes new and young hunters have, the more likely we are to recruit them to becoming life-long hunters who buy licenses and tags every year.  Additionally, baiting provides similar advantages to senior and disabled hunters by prolonging their ability to successfully hunt.  Those senior and disabled hunters who normally might quit hunting as physical abilities diminish can still have a method that fits their physical abilities and allows them to hunt far longer than if baiting were not available. 

While I fully support maintaining hunting over bait for deer and elk I also support common-sense regulations for baiting.  I believe we are allowing perfect to be the enemy of good with respect to finding a reasonable solution to the expressed concerns over bait quantity.  I suggest we establish a threshold high enough to not effect most of the hunters in Washington who carry in small quantities of bait, but low enough to prevent those who are placing truck-loads of apples in one site. Bait quantity is the primary reason this issue is being debated and so I urge you to only consider quantity for future regulations.  Proposals and ideas concerning public vs. private lands, automatic feeders, baiting dates, baiting permits or any others should not be considered at this time as they do not address any substantive issue like the concerns over bait quantity.   

Most importantly, let’s put this regular discussion of a baiting ban behind us, and move forward in solving the many more serious issues important to protecting and perpetuating the fish and wildlife of this State.

[jasnt]

Very well said Idaho hunter

[blackveltbowhunter]