So WDFW does chase the elk around... UPDATED

[luvtohnt]

It appears they ran them a ways from the initial contact.  How long does it take to get a picture and count 10 elk?  Running them miles, across roads, in and out of different fields seems a little unnecessary unless the surveyor needed to change the batteries in his calculator or needed to sharpen his pencil.

... spotted them again on another ridge about 3/4 of a mile away.

In the original post he said 3/4 of a mile. That is a distance an elk can cover in just a few short minutes. Again elk will run in the direction of the flight path in an attempt to escape. It could also be that the chopper has to turn and head in the direction of the elk to continue it's proposed flight path, that part we may never know.

Brandon

[luvtohnt]

Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk. 


Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.

Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM


Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?

Brandon

if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..

generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...



Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.

Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete.....     JK, sort of.

Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly.  A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.

Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.

I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault.

"It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."

Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL.   

Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.

Brandon

Except there are pictures...

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Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.

Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.

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Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!

Brandon

[westside bull]

There's a hunting season going on for elk leave them alone when people are hunting them are u the Bio or what?

[Humptulips]

When I trapped in OR the bios were always busy in the Late winter/Spring flying around doing counts. seems pretty sensible to do that kind of stuff at a time of the year when you're not interfering with hunting seasons.

[luvtohnt]

There's a hunting season going on for elk leave them alone when people are hunting them are u the Bio or what?

No I am not the biologist. Once again if you read the article you will see there is good justification for survey's during this time of year. You have to perform the survey's  in order to assess the population and make decisions about harvest goals. This is all part of proper management, and the WDFW will never win. Damed if you do and damed if you don't!!

Brandon

[luvtohnt]

So put more stress on animals at the most vital time of year. How many complaints is that going to generate?

Brandon

[LDennis24]

First of all I never said they left the unit they were surveying. Second of all when I talked to the bio on the phone he said they "were not" counting elk and that all they did was take a quick picture and continued on their survey. That is not what he told Lander's, if you read the article, and not what I saw. I was there, you were not. Third, they doubled back and circled us then they circled the elk and followed them in a North to South direction. Not East to West which is how they were doing the survey. You must be friends with him or something.

Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk. 


Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.

Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM


Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?

Brandon

if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..

generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...



Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.

Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete.....     JK, sort of.

Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly.  A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.

Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.

I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault.

"It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."

Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL.   

Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.

Brandon

Except there are pictures...

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.

Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!

Brandon

Your trying to sound like you know what your talking about but all I'm hearing is BLAH BLAH BLAH...

[Jonathan_S]

Levi, thanks for sharing this 

[LDennis24]

I think after all this I'm just gonna go to Ellensburg with a box of apples and try my hand at one of those field elk that will walk right into my horse trailer! To me this was about them saying one thing and doing another and not getting straight answer's. It shouldn't be that I have to make a big stink to get an explaination for why it happened this way and then find out they told someone else a different story...

[2labs]

Heck go over to Hanford with a box of apples! It's closer and the bulls are huge!!
If your native you just get a ticket for damaging the "Fauna" take two what the heck

[luvtohnt]

First of all I never said they left the unit they were surveying. Second of all when I talked to the bio on the phone he said they "were not" counting elk and that all they did was take a quick picture and continued on their survey. That is not what he told Lander's, if you read the article, and not what I saw. I was there, you were not. Third, they doubled back and circled us then they circled the elk and followed them in a North to South direction. Not East to West which is how they were doing the survey. You must be friends with him or something.

Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk. 


Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.

Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM


Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?

Brandon

if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..

generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...



Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.

Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete.....     JK, sort of.

Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly.  A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.

Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.

I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault.

"It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."

Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL.   

Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.

Brandon

Except there are pictures...

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.

Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!

Brandon

Your trying to sound like you know what your talking about but all I'm hearing is BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I am well aware you never said that elkinrutdrivemenuts assumed someone went many miles. I was correcting his statement.

Occasionally it would be nice to see people showing respect for someone trying to do the job they are being paid to do. I am truly sorry that your hunt was interrupted, and you may not be able to harvest an elk. I hope your season next year is not interrupted and you are able to harvest an elk. 

As I stated earlier I am simply here to play devil's advocate as I have no vested interest in this.

Brandon

[bigtex]

I actually made a call 2 yrs ago when I witnessed some guys shoot an elk on private ground and knew the landowner didnt allow hunting and the LEO arrived in camo and an unmarked vehicle and drove by the crime as they were loading the elk and pretended to be a curious hunter. They told him they just shot it on the private ground and not wanting to blow his cover he sent another warden to the hunter's home to wait for him and write him a violation. They fined him for tresspassing for something around $120. That's ridiculous! That's cheaper than driving to the blue's for an elk! No punishment there...

Trespass isn't a ticket with a fine on it. If your charged with trespass you must be arraigned in court before a judge.

[elkinrutdrivemenuts]

First of all I never said they left the unit they were surveying. Second of all when I talked to the bio on the phone he said they "were not" counting elk and that all they did was take a quick picture and continued on their survey. That is not what he told Lander's, if you read the article, and not what I saw. I was there, you were not. Third, they doubled back and circled us then they circled the elk and followed them in a North to South direction. Not East to West which is how they were doing the survey. You must be friends with him or something.

Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk. 


Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.

Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM


Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?

Brandon

if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..

generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...



Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.

Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete.....     JK, sort of.

Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly.  A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.

Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.

I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault.

"It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."

Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL.   

Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.

Brandon

Except there are pictures...

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.

Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!

Brandon

Your trying to sound like you know what your talking about but all I'm hearing is BLAH BLAH BLAH...

I am well aware you never said that elkinrutdrivemenuts assumed someone went many miles. I was correcting his statement.

Occasionally it would be nice to see people showing respect for someone trying to do the job they are being paid to do. I am truly sorry that your hunt was interrupted, and you may not be able to harvest an elk. I hope your season next year is not interrupted and you are able to harvest an elk. 

As I stated earlier I am simply here to play devil's advocate as I have no vested interest in this.

Brandon

Ok fine,they pushed them through across a road and through a few different pieces of land.  Who knows how far those elk actually ran.  Chasing the animals is not in their best interest or good management.   

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[elkinrutdrivemenuts]

I think after all this I'm just gonna go to Ellensburg with a box of apples and try my hand at one of those field elk that will walk right into my horse trailer! To me this was about them saying one thing and doing another and not getting straight answer's. It shouldn't be that I have to make a big stink to get an explaination for why it happened this way and then find out they told someone else a different story...

Come to Idaho, no helicopters here and you can actually shoot a branch antlered bull elk with a rifle!  It's weird at first,but you get used to it, I have! 

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[idahohuntr]

I think after all this I'm just gonna go to Ellensburg with a box of apples and try my hand at one of those field elk that will walk right into my horse trailer! To me this was about them saying one thing and doing another and not getting straight answer's. It shouldn't be that I have to make a big stink to get an explaination for why it happened this way and then find out they told someone else a different story...

I'm sure they used the money from that auction tag to pay for the extra helicopter time to fly around and take photos of elk.

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