Another muzzleloader newbee

[fzy]

So after 30 years of hunting and shooting modern firearms I have decided to take the plunge and try blackpowder.  After much research I have decided to start with a Optima V2 Northwest.  I'm sure I will have many questions but I am going to start with powder.

I was on  Hodgdon's web site, looking at Pyrodex and Triple Seven. It seems that Triple Seven gives better velocity with like loads. Hodgdon also states that Triple Seven is only for use with 209 primers.   

In reading many posts on this forum I see  people using Triple Seven with caps.  Is it a reliable ignition  thing or some other reason Hodgdon says only use Triple Seven with 209 primers?

Thanks for your patience and help.
Mike

[Damnimissed]

777 loose powder can easily be ignited by #11 caps or musket caps. In fact, I've never had a misfire with #11's and 777 loose...pellets, on the other hand, are harder to ignite. Honestly, powder is just as easy and convenient as pellets. That's what I would use if I were you.

[M_ray]

Hodgdon recommends 209 or musket caps to fire their 777 pellets because they do not have a starter strip like the old pyrodex pellets. Using a #11 with loose 777 ffg or fffg isn't a problem. I use #11 Dynamit nobel caps and loos 777 ffg out of both my Thompson Center Muzzy's

[bobcat]

The 777 pellets are for 209 primers only. You could try Pyrodex pellets, or as others have said, go with 777 loose powder. That's what I use in my Optima. Never have tried pellets and I've been muzzleloader hunting for 30 years.

[M_ray]

I have spoken with the folks at hodgdon and they say you can use musket caps with their 777 pellets. In their own words "11's will work with 777 pellets but 1 out of a 1000 will misfire" so they cant guarantee them.

fzy, the other thing to consider is that pellets will only allow you 100 or 150 grain choice of load (make sure your barrel is rated for 150grns before trying it)... You will find that some guns shoot best with say 96, 92, 105 grn's ect... in other words you can play with the amount and scale down if necessary as to find the sweet spot. If you are not burning all the powder with your shot your  barrel can get fouled quickly and you may have trouble in the field getting a follow up shot stuck half way down your barrel. 150 grn loads as seen on the hunting channel are all with 209 primers so they burn hot ... 150grn load in WA with a #11 defeats the purpose IMO cause more than likely you are not burning all the powder anyway. You can easily check this when you shoot, place a tarp in front of your shooting station and look for unburnt powder that gets kicked out of your shot. If it is all burning of coarse the tarp will be clean if not start reducing you load until all your powder is burnt. If you can get a musket cap to burn 3 50grn pellets of 777 and group without fouling your barrel then you're in business 

There are pro's and con's to using both the #11's and musket caps ... #11's are smaller and some have trouble putting them on, however there are cappers to aide in this so finding one that works for you might mean you may have to experiment with a few and see which works for you. Also being that #11's are small I feel that there is less chance of moisture getting in in the event of rain also the are tight fitting. Musket caps of coarse burn hotter and are large making it easier to put on but they either have a flange with grove's or straight but they also have groves in the side's ... They don't fit as tight making them more susceptible to falling off which makes me less confident in their ability to keep the moisture out. If you like them you could cut rubber tubing for the top but of coarse this doesn't work with the type that have a flange.

Here is an example of cap keepers that I use on "11's and can be made or bought for musket caps as well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Percussion-Cap-Keepers-300-Qty-for-No-10-and-No-11-caps-Color-BLUE-/141321540211?hash=item20e76b9273

[bobcat]

Ask Sabotloader, he will tell you the musket caps are not any hotter than the #11s. But personally I can't say. I only go by what Hodgdon says on their website, which is to only use 777 pellets with 209 primers.

[M_ray]

Ask Sabotloader, he will tell you the musket caps are not any hotter than the #11s. But personally I can't say. I only go by what Hodgdon says on their website, which is to only use 777 pellets with 209 primers.

  To be safe I would agree!   

[fzy]

Thanks guys.  Never intended on using the pellets, dumping powder down the barrel just seems better for finding that sweet spot.  I would think that FFFG would be easier to spark off due to the smaller granules.

Ordered the rifle last night and of course it's back ordered.  Oh well more time to gather info and supplies.

I'm sure more questions will follow, thanks.
Mike

[Sabotloader]

I have for the most part always shot T7 powder in my sidelocks and inlines.  Igniting T7 in an inline is not near as difficult as it can be in a sidelock.  Over the years I beleive I have dscovered for myself - during hunting season especially here in north Idaho - I shoot T7-3f with caps in  either a sidehammer or an inline.  During the summer or warmer months I do shoot a lot of T7-2f with caps.  When I am hunting with a 209 primer during Idaho's regular rifle season I do shoot T7-2f.

There is a liimited amount of heat and pressure in a cap wheather musket or #11's.  The real problem lies in hunting with T7 in cold weather. Caps will ignite loose T7 powder. Where they can run into a problem is when the metal in your breech area gets really cold! often the heat of a cap is absorbed by the metal in the cap and the metal on the way to the powder.  3F powder in the finer granulaions will ignite easier than the larger granulations.

Many years ago I was using Musket caps on my renegdes and often did not get ignition in below zero temps.  when we changed to #11 magnum caps and/or RWS Dynimit Noble 1075+ caps the problem seem to take care of itself.  I theorized the cap construction made the difference.  The #11 mag caps fit tighter and completly engulfed the nipple. Most of the fire-heat and pressure was directed right down and through the nipple and  touch hole to the powder. On the other hand a loose fit Musket cap with the large slits in the side seem to allow heat and gas out the side of the nipple. Not all of it was directed south through the nipple.

The next move was to find out the truth between the old argument of which is hotter - Musket or #11.  For this information I headed to Speer/CCI in lewiston just down the hill from Moscow.  My question to the man was which cap is hotter the Musket cap or a #11?  to my surprise he said the standard musket cap is hotter than the standard #11.  I was really disappointed.  But his next statement made things easiier for me... However the the #11 Magnum Cap creates the same heat as does the Musket cap. I have found that the RWS caps even create slightly more heat and pressure.  Then the next statement created another thought.  The Musket cap will burn longer than does the #11 or #11mag.  But if your powder is dry it really should not make a difference.  They both will ignite equally well. 

The other differences you will have to detirmine is which is more efficient at getting the most heat through the touch hole to the powder.  And which one can you seal from the weather the best.

So yes caps will iginite T7 loose powder 3f easier than 2f.  even in warmer weather caps will ignite T7 pellets in an inline.

[Sabotloader]

Ask Sabotloader, he will tell you the musket caps are not any hotter than the #11s. But personally I can't say. I only go by what Hodgdon says on their website, which is to only use 777 pellets with 209 primers.

Let me qualify this by saying #11 Magnum Caps or RWS Dynimit Nobel 1075+ caps   not the regular #11 caps.

[Duckslayer89]

I've been getting a much dirtier barrel after switching to loose powder in my Traditions Vortek. I was able to shoot about 3 shots before swabbing the barrel when using 2 pyrodex pellets. Now after one shot with loose powder it's darn near impossible to load a sabot I really have to force it down the barrel. Could this be from all of the powder not burning?

[MD36]

I have hunted muzzy for 14 years with pellets, loose, 11's and musket. With that being said I use pyrodex pellets and musket caps. With 11's I have had more powder not igniting than with musket. The key to all of if it keeping your caps and powder dry. Also I always shoot off the round before leaving the wood or unload the rifle. Never keep the powder in overnight as the temps change and the powder dampens. Good Luck and Welcome to muzzle loading

[Squidward]

I use 3F BP shooting a TC Hawkins 50cal. I tried sabots and could get about 2 shots and the rifle was in need of cleaning to shoot it again. With the BP and Maxi ball & # 11 CCI caps, I can shoot it all day with out cleaning.
I will suggest using the TC 4 in 1 quick load for fast reload while hunting.
If you're on the wet side and close to Pe ELL they shoot starting January - August 2nd Sunday of the month at the PeELL gun range. it's a fun shoot bring your quarters. Squidward

[M_ray]

I agree with sabotloader #11 dynimit noble 1075 caps are the only way to go! 

[fzy]

Ok, so are the #11 dynimit noble 1075 caps a musket cap or a percussion cap?  The Optima V2 was developed using musket caps, according to the CVA website.

[bobcat]

Ok, so are the #11 dynimit noble 1075 caps a musket cap or a percussion cap?  The Optima V2 was developed using musket caps, according to the CVA website.

That would be a percussion cap but musket caps are also percussion caps. There are #11 percussion caps (smaller) and there are musket percussion caps (larger).

I have a CVA Optima and they only use the musket caps. Look for the German ones that come in a red, round, plastic can.

[M_ray]

Ok, so are the #11 dynimit noble 1075 caps a musket cap or a percussion cap?  The Optima V2 was developed using musket caps, according to the CVA website.

That would be a percussion cap but musket caps are also percussion caps. There are #11 percussion caps (smaller) and there are musket percussion caps (larger).

I have a CVA Optima and they only use the musket caps. Look for the German ones that come in a red, round, plastic can.

So CVA doesn't offer a conversion kit for a #11?

[bobcat]

No, it's either 209's or musket caps.

[M_ray]

fzy, just so you get a better visual of what we are talking about here are the pics of the differences in percussion caps ... as you can see the there are musket caps with a slit in them and those that are not. Since it sounds like there is not a choice for you with the optima I would look for the musket caps without the slits on the sides! I have no idea why they even manufacture them and I don't know who in their right mind would use them but they do 

Here is a good look at the slits!

[M_ray]

here are the difference between the two ... I would choose from the examples on the right if I had only muskets to choose from.

[Sabotloader]

here are the difference between the two ... I would choose from the examples on the right if I had only muskets to choose from.

Now that you bring that picture up - there is an error in my labeling - thought I had fixed that lower right pic.  This is the way it should be:

[M_ray]

Hmm ok I found these pics on the net and I was under the impression the bottom right pic was a musket cap but I guess I was wrong. I didn't pay that close of attention, I never have used muskets really very much. So tell me is there anyone that offers a musket cap without the slits on the sides?

[bobcat]

The only kind of musket cap I've ever seen is the one on the left in the picture.

[Sabotloader]

Hmm ok I found these pics on the net and I was under the impression the bottom right pic was a musket cap but I guess I was wrong. I didn't pay that close of attention, I never have used muskets really very much. So tell me is there anyone that offers a musket cap without the slits on the sides?

Not that I know of... but I really do not keep up to date on Musket caps...

I have also read as late most Musket caps have been dialed back a bit and are being labeled for "reenactment".  Someone else would have to verify that.

[M_ray]

Well ok then sorry to the OP for any confusion I really don't keep up on musket caps either since I used them very little. So it looks like you only have the one choice in caps for your gun fzy so it's either the kind with straight sides or the kind with the flange.

[M_ray]

I've been getting a much dirtier barrel after switching to loose powder in my Traditions Vortek. I was able to shoot about 3 shots before swabbing the barrel when using 2 pyrodex pellets. Now after one shot with loose powder it's darn near impossible to load a sabot I really have to force it down the barrel. Could this be from all of the powder not burning?

I would say probably ... next time you go out to the woods try using the tarp in front where you are shooting and see if there is unburnt powder that is ejected out of your barrel. If you shoot at the range where that isnt an option try slowly scaling back your load say 98,96,94 ect... you might even find that your groups may get smaller too  It's basically just like load development with a cartridge ... it might shoot fine at 100grns just like it did with 2 pellets but it might group better with 94 and burn all your powder. 

[M_ray]

I have hunted muzzy for 14 years with pellets, loose, 11's and musket. With that being said I use pyrodex pellets and musket caps. With 11's I have had more powder not igniting than with musket. The key to all of if it keeping your caps and powder dry. Also I always shoot off the round before leaving the wood or unload the rifle. Never keep the powder in overnight as the temps change and the powder dampens. Good Luck and Welcome to muzzle loading

Lots of guys do this but I don't and never have ... I actually have so much confidence in one of my muzzy's I leave my charge in for the entire hunt! When I drew a late hunt in Oregon I left my load in the entire week and it rained for almost 2 straight days and yes I spent the better part of both days hiking around in it and mine still went off and I killed a nice buck. Now with that being said I would never say one way is better than the other but I would say it's more about what you are more comfortable with or whatever makes you confident. If you have more peace of mind shooting it and cleaning it everyday on a 2 week hunt then by all means do that. I just don't like to spend each night of my hunt cleaning my weapon.

If you choose to leave your charge in for the hunt there are those that believe you should leave your gun in the truck and don't bring it inside at night. The thinking is that the change in temperature will create moisture in the barrel  My way of thinking is simple ... if your gun is that temperamental that you can't leave a load in it or you have to worry about it going off??? Then sell it and buy a Thompson Center or Knight Bighorn! Cause I have never had to worry and most of the time I leave my charge in all season and it always fires 

[Sabotloader]

I have hunted muzzy for 14 years with pellets, loose, 11's and musket. With that being said I use pyrodex pellets and musket caps. With 11's I have had more powder not igniting than with musket. The key to all of if it keeping your caps and powder dry. Also I always shoot off the round before leaving the wood or unload the rifle. Never keep the powder in overnight as the temps change and the powder dampens. Good Luck and Welcome to muzzle loading

Lots of guys do this but I don't and never have ... I actually have so much confidence in one of my muzzy's I leave my charge in for the entire hunt! When I drew a late hunt in Oregon I left my load in the entire week and it rained for almost 2 straight days and yes I spent the better part of both days hiking around in it and mine still went off and I killed a nice buck. Now with that being said I would never say one way is better than the other but I would say it's more about what you are more comfortable with or whatever makes you confident. If you have more peace of mind shooting it and cleaning it everyday on a 2 week hunt then by all means do that. I just don't like to spend each night of my hunt cleaning my weapon.

If you choose to leave your charge in for the hunt there are those that believe you should leave your gun in the truck and don't bring it inside at night. The thinking is that the change in temperature will create moisture in the barrel  My way of thinking is simple ... if your gun is that temperamental that you can't leave a load in it or you have to worry about it going off??? Then sell it and buy a Thompson Center or Knight Bighorn! Cause I have never had to worry and most of the time I leave my charge in all season and it always fires 

I am with you - mine might stay loaded all season... but I would not recommend this until you really become proficient with BP subs and your rifle...

If in doubt get the load out!

[M_ray]

I have hunted muzzy for 14 years with pellets, loose, 11's and musket. With that being said I use pyrodex pellets and musket caps. With 11's I have had more powder not igniting than with musket. The key to all of if it keeping your caps and powder dry. Also I always shoot off the round before leaving the wood or unload the rifle. Never keep the powder in overnight as the temps change and the powder dampens. Good Luck and Welcome to muzzle loading

Lots of guys do this but I don't and never have ... I actually have so much confidence in one of my muzzy's I leave my charge in for the entire hunt! When I drew a late hunt in Oregon I left my load in the entire week and it rained for almost 2 straight days and yes I spent the better part of both days hiking around in it and mine still went off and I killed a nice buck. Now with that being said I would never say one way is better than the other but I would say it's more about what you are more comfortable with or whatever makes you confident. If you have more peace of mind shooting it and cleaning it everyday on a 2 week hunt then by all means do that. I just don't like to spend each night of my hunt cleaning my weapon.

If you choose to leave your charge in for the hunt there are those that believe you should leave your gun in the truck and don't bring it inside at night. The thinking is that the change in temperature will create moisture in the barrel  My way of thinking is simple ... if your gun is that temperamental that you can't leave a load in it or you have to worry about it going off??? Then sell it and buy a Thompson Center or Knight Bighorn! Cause I have never had to worry and most of the time I leave my charge in all season and it always fires 

I am with you - mine might stay loaded all season... but I would not recommend this until you really become proficient with BP subs and your rifle...

If in doubt get the load out!

Agreed ... very good advise 

[MD36]

I usef to leave the powder in but after missing out on the biggest buck I have seen with my own 2 eyes. I just unload. To each his own. Not saying one way is wrong just how I do it and nevr have had a mis fire since.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[fzy]

Thanks for the info guys. 

Lets talk projectiles.  Are muzzleloaders more accurate with sabots?  I was thinking of trying the 275gr Bloodline or would Thor bullets have better inherent accuracy due to being bore specific?  Also, what would be a less expensive option for practice?

[M_ray]

You might have to try several bullets and find what your barrel likes. I have two TC's with the same or similar barrels and they don't take the same bullet. I wouldn't say that Sabots are more accurate but that is what I shoot out of both of mine, however you want to have a bullet that seats well in your barrel and sabots provide that. I know some love Powerbelts but I am not a fan cause I don't think they seat well in my guns. They are easy to load for sure and that might be the attraction but for me I would get a flyer about every 3rd or 4th shot and I believe the bullet would be tumbling out of the barrel. Sabot's just feel like they are nice and snug in my barrel and they group well for me.
 I don't know much about Thor or Bloodline's but they look like a good start and the Thor are legal in Lead free states.

I shoot Knight 310grn full lead conicals in one
http://www.knightrifles.com/product/lead-50-cal-310-grain-muzzleloader-bullets/

And TC shockwave 250grn in the other
http://accessories.tcarms.com/product/tc-shockwave-controlled-expansion-bullets-super-glide-sabot/
 

[Sabotloader]

Thanks for the info guys. 

Lets talk projectiles.  Are muzzleloaders more accurate with sabots?  I was thinking of trying the 275gr Bloodline or would Thor bullets have better inherent accuracy due to being bore specific?  Also, what would be a less expensive option for practice?

I believe the Lehigh/Bloodline 458x275 grain bullet is the most versatile bullet there might be!  but, I am terribly biased and I admit it.  The design of the Bloodline offers perhaps the best 'Terminal Ballistics' out there.

The real question is will if fit in your rifle considering there really is only one sabot available for that bullet.  You do not say which rifle you might be shooting, but if it is a very tight bore you may have a difficult time getting it loaded.  A good alternative might be the 452x250 grain Bloodline - with it you several choices of thin to thicker sabots.

Also I prefer sabots to fullbore but again that is just me.

I shoot both of those bullets with 119 grs. of T7-3f and a #11 Mag cap or a RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+

I can not prove to you that sabots or full bore are more accurate - although most shooters at the long range ML matches shoot full bore heavy lead conicals which reduces the external effect on the bullet.  But to 200+ yards I will take a good bullet with a sabot.

[jmscon]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

[Jarhead Chase]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

I am running into this problem with my ML. I found a Traditions Ambush Pursuit III in the bargain cave new with a damaged box for super cheap, so I decided to close the deal on my first muzzleloader. I knew that I would have to change the breech plug, but it turns out that the head spacing is different. Despite the fact that I have a new breech plug that accepts musket caps, and it strikes the musket caps with deep strikes, it does not strike them correctly apparently, and they will not ignite. Basically I am now only able to use 209's with this ML, which makes it illegal for WA and ID, unless I want to use it for Modern Firearm. I would sell it, but I would be selling an unhuntable rifle, and I just can't bring myself to do that.


Bottom line: Make sure you can switch it from the 209's, otherwise you have a paperweight.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[M_ray]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

I am running into this problem with my ML. I found a Traditions Ambush Pursuit III in the bargain cave new with a damaged box for super cheap, so I decided to close the deal on my first muzzleloader. I knew that I would have to change the breech plug, but it turns out that the head spacing is different. Despite the fact that I have a new breech plug that accepts musket caps, and it strikes the musket caps with deep strikes, it does not strike them correctly apparently, and they will not ignite. Basically I am now only able to use 209's with this ML, which makes it illegal for WA and ID, unless I want to use it for Modern Firearm. I would sell it, but I would be selling an unhuntable rifle, and I just can't bring myself to do that.


Bottom line: Make sure you can switch it from the 209's, otherwise you have a paperweight.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Add Oregon to your list but you can use the 209 ignition in Montana,  and you can use the 209 with a scope in firearm restriction areas of WA! 

[Jarhead Chase]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

I am running into this problem with my ML. I found a Traditions Ambush Pursuit III in the bargain cave new with a damaged box for super cheap, so I decided to close the deal on my first muzzleloader. I knew that I would have to change the breech plug, but it turns out that the head spacing is different. Despite the fact that I have a new breech plug that accepts musket caps, and it strikes the musket caps with deep strikes, it does not strike them correctly apparently, and they will not ignite. Basically I am now only able to use 209's with this ML, which makes it illegal for WA and ID, unless I want to use it for Modern Firearm. I would sell it, but I would be selling an unhuntable rifle, and I just can't bring myself to do that.


Bottom line: Make sure you can switch it from the 209's, otherwise you have a paperweight.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Add Oregon to your list but you can use the 209 ignition in Montana,  and you can use the 209 with a scope in firearm restriction areas of WA! 

Excellent info. Thank you!. I took it out for a little target practice,  and it shoots like a dream. I'd love if the darn thing was legal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[jmsurra]

I have hunted muzzy for 14 years with pellets, loose, 11's and musket. With that being said I use pyrodex pellets and musket caps. With 11's I have had more powder not igniting than with musket. The key to all of if it keeping your caps and powder dry. Also I always shoot off the round before leaving the wood or unload the rifle. Never keep the powder in overnight as the temps change and the powder dampens. Good Luck and Welcome to muzzle loading

Lots of guys do this but I don't and never have ... I actually have so much confidence in one of my muzzy's I leave my charge in for the entire hunt! When I drew a late hunt in Oregon I left my load in the entire week and it rained for almost 2 straight days and yes I spent the better part of both days hiking around in it and mine still went off and I killed a nice buck. Now with that being said I would never say one way is better than the other but I would say it's more about what you are more comfortable with or whatever makes you confident. If you have more peace of mind shooting it and cleaning it everyday on a 2 week hunt then by all means do that. I just don't like to spend each night of my hunt cleaning my weapon.

If you choose to leave your charge in for the hunt there are those that believe you should leave your gun in the truck and don't bring it inside at night. The thinking is that the change in temperature will create moisture in the barrel  My way of thinking is simple ... if your gun is that temperamental that you can't leave a load in it or you have to worry about it going off??? Then sell it and buy a Thompson Center or Knight Bighorn! Cause I have never had to worry and most of the time I leave my charge in all season and it always fires 

I am with you - mine might stay loaded all season... but I would not recommend this until you really become proficient with BP subs and your rifle...

If in doubt get the load out!

Agreed ... very good advise 

If you're willing to gamble on the ML firing at the crucial time, you can leave it loaded through the hunt, but there's plenty of evidence that shows us that leaving a ML loaded can corrode the barrel. The question is: can it cause it to corrode in the week or two a hunt takes? As long as there is doubt, I'd rather not take the chance of damaging the barrel of my rifle. In fact, I'm starting to favor in-line MLs that break like a shotgun, to facilitate easy unloading at the end of the day.

I only used 209's before this, so when it comes to musket caps, I've yet to develop an opinion, with no experience to speak of. I'm intrigued by a shooter I've seen who starts his 2-pellet load with 10 grains of powder, to insure pellet ignition.  With musket caps often hit-and-miss compared to 209's (and let's face it, that's why Washington won't let us use the 209's), this technique is something I plan to explore. Any innovation that improves our odds while using what we already have at hand has real appeal for me.

[Duckslayer89]

I put 6 grains of 4f down before my two pellets when I was using pellets. Now i just use Goex 3f

[LittleJohn]

Great info guys
Thanks
Just reading over the post.

Just bought my first front stuffer and trying to figure it out

[jmsurra]

I put 6 grains of 4f down before my two pellets when I was using pellets. Now i just use Goex 3f

Adding some loose powder into the mix does beg the question of why we wouldn't just switch to the powder completely? If we have to meter out some powder, why not just meter out the whole charge in powder, and leave the pellets out of the mix altogether? I guess, for me, it's going to come down to dependability. I'll have to see how these Northwest editions perform with musket caps, and pellets, or powder, etc. As I mentioned before, my T/C Bone Collector (NOT NW legal) uses 209's only, so these Northwest editions with the musket caps may or may not impress me with their performance. The 209's had their drawbacks, too. A 209 cap is usually hot enough to ignite any load, but on those rare occasions that it didn't touch off the charge, it was powerful enough that it could spit the bullet and pellets out the front of the barrel, sometimes ten or twenty feet (I never saw a twenty-footer, but there always seemed to be guys who had a friend who knew a guy who had a cousin who's best friend it happened to!). There's what seems to be a valid argument against using the hotter 209's - the 209's that aren't ML-specific, because they can move the charge down the barrel prior to ignition, which can be a recipe for disaster. It's like loading your ML and failing to fully seat the charge and bullet.

I think, in our own way, we're experiencing the same learning curve as the guys in the1800's. We might have different obstacles, but it seems we still have some in common, such as us against mother nature, and us learning by trial and error; what works, and what doesn't work. I remember the narration from the movie Jeremiah Johnson, "It was only a .35 Caliber, but it was a Gen-U-INE Hawkens," and then the .50 Caliber Hawkens he later found frozen to a dead man's hands that "Kilt the Bar that kilt me."

I can honestly say that, with a smokeless cartridge-using rifle like a guide gun or other modern rifle, I could take a single bullet on a hunt and feel confident that I wouldn't need anything else. Given time, I hope I'll come to feel that sort of confidence with ML's here in the wet Pacific NW.

Time and practice will tell the rest of that tale, I guess.

[Duckslayer89]

Sabot loader: Are sabots allowed in Idaho? I seem to remember reading they are not somewhere. If someone is planning on hunting both states it would be smart to just stick with one bullet legal in both states so you don't have to readjust everything. I already fell in love with my 290 grain Barnes T-EZ and don't want to have to switch if I hunt Idaho this year but I might have to!

[jmsurra]

I found this online, but it's from a post made in 2009. A lot can change in that time. I think back around that time, Washington didn't allow jacketed projectiles, and that's changed. I'll keep looking for current rules.

 the
muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
• Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
• Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. Except hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes. (Applications are available at Fish and Game
offices).
• Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or
other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders
are prohibited.
• Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
• Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the
bore diameter. Sabots are prohibited.

[jmsurra]

Current Idaho Regs state that you're required to use an all-lead or lead-alloy projectile.

Sabots are still not allowed.

You must have the primer exposed "when cocked and ready to fire." 

That last one differs significantly from Washington in that they're indicating that you may protect your primer in whatever fashion suits you, until the time comes when you're ready to fire. From what I've read in here, most of the Washington Fish & Game guys say they'll ticket you if they find you with a piece of tape over your primer exposure holes. That "when cocked and ready to fire" doesn't sound like a big thing, but to me it's a big improvement over Washington's Regs.

On the other hand, I'm not too excited about the loose-powder-only rule, or the all-lead projectile only rule, though I dislike them less (even collectively) than our exposed-primer-all-the-time rule.

I took this straight from Idaho's 2015-2016 booklet online:

Muzzleloader Caliber Requirements
In any hunt, including general any-weapon seasons and short-
range hunts, it is unlawful to pursue or kill big game animals
with any muzzleloading rifle or musket that is less than .45
caliber for deer, pronghorn, mountain lion or gray wolf; or is
less than .50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain
goat or black bear.

Muzzleloader Only Season
Any person hunting in a muzzleloader only season, including
controlled hunts, must have in their possession a license with
a muzzleloader permit validation. During a muzzleloader-only
season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with
any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other than a
muzzleloading rifle or musket. In addition, the muzzleloading
rifle or musket must be:
•
Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
•
Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. 
Except
 hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes.  (Applications are available at Fish and Game
offices.)
•
Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or
other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders are
prohibited.
•
Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
•
Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the
bore diameter. Sabots are prohibited.
•
Loaded with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed
projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy.
•
Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap.
209 primers are prohibited.
•
Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of
the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is cocked
and ready to fire