Do You Realize Now What You Have Done?

[wolfbait]

BH45-I'm perfectly fine in the line I'm in just as you believe you are as well.  I can respect that.

Wolfbait-I don't currently represent any state or fed agency or environmental group.  Why would you assume I do just because I don't share the prevailing opinion here?  Is there no room in the hunting community for other schools of thought?

ribka-current land use policy mandates multiple use management.  I think wildlife and their habitats should be managed according to the maximum benefit of all stakeholders, of which we hunters may only be one group.  Unfortunately, that might mean lowered harvest quotas.  Removal of apex predators from a landscape simplifies a system and can result in inbalance.  There are many examples of this in the published literature, which is where I get most of my information.  This source is peer reviewed by other scientists before being relaesed for public consumption.  My education taught me to think critically and not believe everything I read.  I have hunted elk in Idaho and elk/deer in Montana.  I saw wolf tracks while hunting.  It depends on what is stressing deer/elk in WA.  If they are hammering winter forage to the extent that the veg does not recover quickly enough, fewer deer/elk would allow veg recovery and maintian the carrying capacity of the land.  Large winter kill is an indication winter habitat may not be adequate to support current population levels.  If WA State did not have adequate resources to support many wolves, then the wolves that came here would not be successful and populations would not grow.  Obviously this does not appear to be the case.  I mentioned climate change with reference to Bergmann's rule which states generally speaking animals that live further from the equator (ie. in colder climes) are larger.  If our climate continues to change, and get warmer in WA, larger critters will not be optimally adapted here.  Smaller ones will ultimately be more successful.  Please realize I speak in general and theoretical terms as it is unlikely we would see results of these changes in one's lifetime due to the generation time needed to effect measurable change in wolf size.

Pianoman-wolves are not mine any more than they are yours.  I apologize if I implied otherwise.

"Wolfbait-I don't currently represent any state or fed agency or environmental group."----Which environmental groups did you represent in the past? If you don't mind me asking.


. "If WA State did not have adequate resources to support many wolves, then the wolves that came here would not be successful and populations would not grow."


If I remember right, when the USFWS brought the first wolves in, they started killing livestock right out of the cages. And as has happened in just about every confirmation of wolves in WA, the wolves were confirmed because they were killing livestock.  Funny how wolves always seem to show up first in the middle of cattle country.

The thing that makes wolves such proficient killers is that they have an unlimited prey base and unlimited boundaries, which only exacerbates with the protection of the USFWS and WDFW.

Back in 2009 I ran into a couple of guys who were doing a wolf/deer predation study, I ask the one guy that seemed to be the know it all, what would happen when the wolves finished off the deer herds and he said they would gradually disperse to new killing grounds, leaving a few behind to keep the livestock trimmed up etc..


"Removal of apex predators from a landscape simplifies a system and can result in imbalance".


What we have now is an imbalance do to the introduction of an apex predator, unless the end result is a new game management program which includes very limited human harvest.

Adding an example of WDFW wolf management---Federal recovery goals for the Rocky Mountain region were met seven years after wolves were released in central Idaho and Yellowstone National Park in 1995. In Oregon, state recovery goals were achieved last year, six years after the first wolf pack was documented in 2008.

Washington’s first wolf pack was discovered in 2008, too. It has nearly as many wolves as Oregon, but under the state’s wolf plan recovery is at least several years away and as much as a decade away, wildlife officials say. WDFW estimates wolves will be eligible to be taken off the state’s protected species list by 2021 — plus or minus three years. On paper, there’s been no progress in meeting recovery goals in three years.

The key difference between Washington’s wolf plan and the plans other states used is the minimum number of breeding pairs needed before wildlife managers can consider management measures, including hunting, to control how many wolves live in the state, and where. http://www.capitalpress.com/Washington/20150604/washingtons-wolf-experience-unlike-rest-of-the-west#.VXCAVeoGBig.facebook

[Little Dave]

I don't believe our wild lands should be managed as an eternal ungulate farm for us hunters.

It is a similar respectable ideal expressed by Aldo Leopold.  An ideal though.  We need to keep ideals in mind but still work toward the next-best condition which considers other realities.

Specific to this situation is the constituency that supports Wildlife Management, which is both financial and political.  As we understand the current model, we must have a certain amount of revenue from hunting and fishing to support programs (the financial).  If that falls short, we know for a fact that wildlife management is near last on prioritized funding, way behind education which is well over half and constantly demanding more.  So for lack of enough sportsmen, and resentment by other stakeholders for interference in their affairs, dwindling political support will do nothing to sustain a course toward an ideal.

From our perspective as the educated, with an academic perspective on history, the biological principles, and the hypothetical ideal state, we need to respect the political reality of NOT trying to reach one stakeholder's ideal if it will not achieve the next best stable state in a sustainable manner.  Tactfully, we need to keep sportsmen and rural landowners engaged.

Do not overestimate the general public's interest in the natural world.  This changes like the wind and could be completely gone in as little as five years.  More enduring is the interest of sportsmen and rural landowners.

[bearpaw]

The article posted if ripe with incorrect statements.

Wolves did not cause the collapse of elk herd numbers in the Bitterroot Valley.  Lion predation and very liberal antlerless elk seasons have been directly identified as the reasons that herd crashed.  We can sure attribute it to wolves though, if it makes people feel better.  Why worry about correctly identifying causative issues and resolving them when we can make stuff up to suit our biases?

Also, Wyoming Game and Fish have done some very interesting and informative studies on elk numbers in and around Yellowstone Park.  Not everything fits the narrative stated as fact in this article.

Lastly, the Northern elk herd is AT the objective that FWP has decided it should be at.  An objective that was largely influenced by stockgrowers in the Paradise Valley.  So, regardless of how many predators one wishes to kill, the state of Montana is forbidden by law to manage that herd for any more elk than are currently in it.

FYI - A good deal of Montana hunters are not real satisfied with MT wildlife management!

Is it possible that MFWP is pretty similar to WDFW in the way they under manage wolves and other predators like cougar. It seems we have the same problem in Washington, the overall predator footprint is too large in some areas whether it's wolves, cougar, or too many hunters making the greatest impact in any given area. The fact is that these agencies are responsible for declining herds, the agencies are the ones setting seasons or preventing adequate hunting of predators. Like Washington, Montana is way too conservative on cougar hunting quotas. I'm not at all surprised cats are eating too many elk in the bitteroot! I would add something, if cougars are forcing the calf rate down to 10 calves per 100 cows or whatever it said, then if wolves eat another 3% that is also cause for concern regarding wolves! That is an additional impact on the herds that didn't exist for decades until agencies planted Canadian wolves.

[bearpaw]

The key difference between Washington’s wolf plan and the plans other states used is the minimum number of breeding pairs needed before wildlife managers can consider management measures, including hunting, to control how many wolves live in the state, and where. http://www.capitalpress.com/Washington/20150604/washingtons-wolf-experience-unlike-rest-of-the-west#.VXCAVeoGBig.facebook

That comment is 100% on the money!

[Jerky]

Some of you guys crack me up...new guy doesn't believe what I do so he must not really be one of us.  My opinions are solely mine and represent me alone.  I have never been part of an environmental group, represented one, or affiliated with one.  Sorry I don't fit neatly into that box.  I am just a lifelong member of the hunting fraternity with an opinion like most others here.  To be honest I am pleasantly surprised that I haven't been summarily written off and ran off this thread already because of my views.  Valid points have been added by others to this discussion, possibly as a result of my participation.  That is why I am here.  I apologize to those that went and got the proverbial bowl of popcorn if this string didn't result in the pot stirring entertainment you had hoped.  Maybe next time from somebody else.  Thanks for the welcomes fellas.

[bearpaw]

Some of you guys crack me up...new guy doesn't believe what I do so he must not really be one of us.  My opinions are solely mine and represent me alone.  I have never been part of an environmental group, represented one, or affiliated with one.  Sorry I don't fit neatly into that box.  I am just a lifelong member of the hunting fraternity with an opinion like most others here.  To be honest I am pleasantly surprised that I haven't been summarily written off and ran off this thread already because of my views.  Valid points have been added by others to this discussion, possibly as a result of my participation.  That is why I am here.  I apologize to those that went and got the proverbial bowl of popcorn if this string didn't result in the pot stirring entertainment you had hoped.  Maybe next time from somebody else.  Thanks for the welcomes fellas.

I can assure you there are members with many different views regarding wolves or most any other topic on this forum. Unless you violate the rules you will not be banned from the forum. If you feel you are being harassed by other member(s) please report it to the moderator team, we will assess the situation and take appropriate action. If you choose not to post in a topic due to opposing views that's your choice but please don't infer that you will be run off the forum or off a topic for having an opposing view, that's not really a very accurate statement!

Welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy the many different discussions and activities available to members.

[JLS]

The article posted if ripe with incorrect statements.

Wolves did not cause the collapse of elk herd numbers in the Bitterroot Valley.  Lion predation and very liberal antlerless elk seasons have been directly identified as the reasons that herd crashed.  We can sure attribute it to wolves though, if it makes people feel better.  Why worry about correctly identifying causative issues and resolving them when we can make stuff up to suit our biases?

Also, Wyoming Game and Fish have done some very interesting and informative studies on elk numbers in and around Yellowstone Park.  Not everything fits the narrative stated as fact in this article.

Lastly, the Northern elk herd is AT the objective that FWP has decided it should be at.  An objective that was largely influenced by stockgrowers in the Paradise Valley.  So, regardless of how many predators one wishes to kill, the state of Montana is forbidden by law to manage that herd for any more elk than are currently in it.

FYI - A good deal of Montana hunters are not real satisfied with MT wildlife management!

I never stated nor implied that they were.  They should not be satisfied, and I'm not either.  Montana is crumbling to pressure from a stockgrower influenced legislature that wants elk herds drastically reduced.



Is it possible that MFWP is pretty similar to WDFW in the way they under manage wolves and other predators like cougar. It seems we have the same problem in Washington, the overall predator footprint is too large in some areas whether it's wolves, cougar, or too many hunters making the greatest impact in any given area. The fact is that these agencies are responsible for declining herds, the agencies are the ones setting seasons or preventing adequate hunting of predators.

I agree that cougar harvest in parts of Montana is way too conservative.  However, it is largely driven by a very vocal contingent of outfitters that want trophy areas for cats.  Wolf hunting is very liberal, outside of a stupidly low quota in the Buffalo Fork/Hellroaring area.  Anyone that is complaining about wolf, or predator numbers in general in Montana should spend more time hunting and less time complaining.


 Like Washington, Montana is way too conservative on cougar hunting quotas. I'm not at all surprised cats are eating too many elk in the bitteroot! I would add something, if cougars are forcing the calf rate down to 10 calves per 100 cows or whatever it said, then if wolves eat another 3% that is also cause for concern regarding wolves! That is an additional impact on the herds that didn't exist for decades until agencies planted Canadian wolves.

For the majority of Montana, wolves are but a miniscule factor in terms of elk hunting.  Montana has long had a harboring issue with elk.  Archery hunting for elk on public land is very, very, good.  Rifle hunting is steadily getting worse as elk learn to take refuge on private land.  It has been well documented that elk are learning to migrate to these ranches even BEFORE the rifle season opens and they stay there for the duration of the season.

I am in no way supportive of the shoulder seasons in Montana that are going to be used to drastically reduce elk numbers.  The real wolf in Montana is the Republican legislature, which has mandated the Montana reduce elk numbers by about 45% statewide.  In addition, FWP has consistently contradicted its elk management plan by counting elk that are not available to the public and incorporating those numbers into the total population counts.

Debbie Barrett and her legislative cohorts have done far more damage to Montana elk hunting than any Canadian Superwolf ever will.

[JimmyHoffa]

Some of you guys crack me up...new guy doesn't believe what I do so he must not really be one of us.  My opinions are solely mine and represent me alone.  I have never been part of an environmental group, represented one, or affiliated with one.  Sorry I don't fit neatly into that box.  I am just a lifelong member of the hunting fraternity with an opinion like most others here.  To be honest I am pleasantly surprised that I haven't been summarily written off and ran off this thread already because of my views.  Valid points have been added by others to this discussion, possibly as a result of my participation.  That is why I am here.  I apologize to those that went and got the proverbial bowl of popcorn if this string didn't result in the pot stirring entertainment you had hoped.  Maybe next time from somebody else.  Thanks for the welcomes fellas.

Well, it is kind of hard to grasp someone claiming to be a hunter (which gives the assumption that they would support improving hunting now and for future generations) and be 'fine' with the wolf situation.  If there was any chance that these wolves are going to be managed, maybe it would be more easily accepted.  But knowing this state, the lawsuits and initiatives, I just don't feel like these wolves will ever be under control.  They eat game and make more wolves, that's just what they do.  If I had a crystal ball, I just don't think it would show me a better hunting future in WA; instead I think it would show smaller/troubled herds and impossible to draw special permits in a draw only system.  If reduction in herd size is a management goal so it doesn't look like an ungulate farm, use the human hunters...add a bunch of permits or extend the seasons or put does/cows on the hit list for modern rifle, etc.  There are other ways to control game that won't destroy ranching communities and hunting opportunity.

[bearpaw]

The article posted if ripe with incorrect statements.

Wolves did not cause the collapse of elk herd numbers in the Bitterroot Valley.  Lion predation and very liberal antlerless elk seasons have been directly identified as the reasons that herd crashed.  We can sure attribute it to wolves though, if it makes people feel better.  Why worry about correctly identifying causative issues and resolving them when we can make stuff up to suit our biases?

Also, Wyoming Game and Fish have done some very interesting and informative studies on elk numbers in and around Yellowstone Park.  Not everything fits the narrative stated as fact in this article.

Lastly, the Northern elk herd is AT the objective that FWP has decided it should be at.  An objective that was largely influenced by stockgrowers in the Paradise Valley.  So, regardless of how many predators one wishes to kill, the state of Montana is forbidden by law to manage that herd for any more elk than are currently in it.

FYI - A good deal of Montana hunters are not real satisfied with MT wildlife management!

I never stated nor implied that they were.  They should not be satisfied, and I'm not either.  Montana is crumbling to pressure from a stockgrower influenced legislature that wants elk herds drastically reduced.



Is it possible that MFWP is pretty similar to WDFW in the way they under manage wolves and other predators like cougar. It seems we have the same problem in Washington, the overall predator footprint is too large in some areas whether it's wolves, cougar, or too many hunters making the greatest impact in any given area. The fact is that these agencies are responsible for declining herds, the agencies are the ones setting seasons or preventing adequate hunting of predators.

I agree that cougar harvest in parts of Montana is way too conservative.  However, it is largely driven by a very vocal contingent of outfitters that want trophy areas for cats.  Wolf hunting is very liberal, outside of a stupidly low quota in the Buffalo Fork/Hellroaring area.  Anyone that is complaining about wolf, or predator numbers in general in Montana should spend more time hunting and less time complaining.


 Like Washington, Montana is way too conservative on cougar hunting quotas. I'm not at all surprised cats are eating too many elk in the bitteroot! I would add something, if cougars are forcing the calf rate down to 10 calves per 100 cows or whatever it said, then if wolves eat another 3% that is also cause for concern regarding wolves! That is an additional impact on the herds that didn't exist for decades until agencies planted Canadian wolves.

For the majority of Montana, wolves are but a miniscule factor in terms of elk hunting.  Montana has long had a harboring issue with elk.  Archery hunting for elk on public land is very, very, good.  Rifle hunting is steadily getting worse as elk learn to take refuge on private land.  It has been well documented that elk are learning to migrate to these ranches even BEFORE the rifle season opens and they stay there for the duration of the season.

I am in no way supportive of the shoulder seasons in Montana that are going to be used to drastically reduce elk numbers.  The real wolf in Montana is the Republican legislature, which has mandated the Montana reduce elk numbers by about 45% statewide.  In addition, FWP has consistently contradicted its elk management plan by counting elk that are not available to the public and incorporating those numbers into the total population counts.

Debbie Barrett and her legislative cohorts have done far more damage to Montana elk hunting than any Canadian Superwolf ever will.

Are you suggesting everyone else in MT is responsible for poor wildlife management except for the agency that actually sets the seasons on elk, cougar, and wolves! That would be like saying WDFW wants to increase elk numbers and reduce wolf and cougar numbers but the hunters and eastern Washington residents won't let them! We all know how badly WDFW wants to reduce wolf and cougar numbers! 

I have never heard of an outfitter or hound hunter who wants fewer cougar tags in MT, the outfitters and hound hunters I know in MT want more cougar tags. MFWP has resisted increasing cougar tag numbers for years! Could the primary problem be certain commissioners, biologists, and anti-hunting groups?

In western Montana there is plenty of public access on lots of public ground, a lack of logging on the forest and predators play a much larger role in determining herd numbers as this topic has proven. Herds in many of those western Montana units are the herds that hunters complain about having depressed herd numbers.

In other MT units (especially central and eastern MT) there are access issues, elk herds have grown on large ranches that have been purchased by non-resident owners who don't allow public hunting. Those large elk herds maraud neighboring ranches when hunting seasons aren't open so neighboring ranches want elk numbers reduced. You can't blame the ranchers when those herds are consuming their livelihood. Those elk aren't being hunted, they are not the herds hunters are complaining about having low elk numbers.

I haven't studied all the "Shoulder Seasons". I hope MFWP isn't trying to reduce elk numbers in public land units where herds are depressed? I hope MFWP intends to reduce herds in areas with excessive elk numbers where certain landowners are preventing elk harvest, areas where herds need reduced!

[JLS]

The article posted if ripe with incorrect statements.

Wolves did not cause the collapse of elk herd numbers in the Bitterroot Valley.  Lion predation and very liberal antlerless elk seasons have been directly identified as the reasons that herd crashed.  We can sure attribute it to wolves though, if it makes people feel better.  Why worry about correctly identifying causative issues and resolving them when we can make stuff up to suit our biases?

Also, Wyoming Game and Fish have done some very interesting and informative studies on elk numbers in and around Yellowstone Park.  Not everything fits the narrative stated as fact in this article.

Lastly, the Northern elk herd is AT the objective that FWP has decided it should be at.  An objective that was largely influenced by stockgrowers in the Paradise Valley.  So, regardless of how many predators one wishes to kill, the state of Montana is forbidden by law to manage that herd for any more elk than are currently in it.

FYI - A good deal of Montana hunters are not real satisfied with MT wildlife management!

I never stated nor implied that they were.  They should not be satisfied, and I'm not either.  Montana is crumbling to pressure from a stockgrower influenced legislature that wants elk herds drastically reduced.



Is it possible that MFWP is pretty similar to WDFW in the way they under manage wolves and other predators like cougar. It seems we have the same problem in Washington, the overall predator footprint is too large in some areas whether it's wolves, cougar, or too many hunters making the greatest impact in any given area. The fact is that these agencies are responsible for declining herds, the agencies are the ones setting seasons or preventing adequate hunting of predators.

I agree that cougar harvest in parts of Montana is way too conservative.  However, it is largely driven by a very vocal contingent of outfitters that want trophy areas for cats.  Wolf hunting is very liberal, outside of a stupidly low quota in the Buffalo Fork/Hellroaring area.  Anyone that is complaining about wolf, or predator numbers in general in Montana should spend more time hunting and less time complaining.


 Like Washington, Montana is way too conservative on cougar hunting quotas. I'm not at all surprised cats are eating too many elk in the bitteroot! I would add something, if cougars are forcing the calf rate down to 10 calves per 100 cows or whatever it said, then if wolves eat another 3% that is also cause for concern regarding wolves! That is an additional impact on the herds that didn't exist for decades until agencies planted Canadian wolves.

For the majority of Montana, wolves are but a miniscule factor in terms of elk hunting.  Montana has long had a harboring issue with elk.  Archery hunting for elk on public land is very, very, good.  Rifle hunting is steadily getting worse as elk learn to take refuge on private land.  It has been well documented that elk are learning to migrate to these ranches even BEFORE the rifle season opens and they stay there for the duration of the season.

I am in no way supportive of the shoulder seasons in Montana that are going to be used to drastically reduce elk numbers.  The real wolf in Montana is the Republican legislature, which has mandated the Montana reduce elk numbers by about 45% statewide.  In addition, FWP has consistently contradicted its elk management plan by counting elk that are not available to the public and incorporating those numbers into the total population counts.

Debbie Barrett and her legislative cohorts have done far more damage to Montana elk hunting than any Canadian Superwolf ever will.

Are you suggesting everyone else in MT is responsible for poor wildlife management except for the agency that actually sets the seasons on elk, cougar, and wolves! That would be like saying WDFW wants to increase elk numbers and reduce wolf and cougar numbers but the hunters and eastern Washington residents won't let them! We all know how badly WDFW wants to reduce wolf and cougar numbers! 

I have no idea where you derived this from my post.  I did not speak to WDFWs management of predators at all so your statement makes no sense to me.  FWP is doing a poor job of managing elk hunting because they are held hostage by a legislature that does not really care about the public land elk hunter.  FWPs elk management plan sucks in the first place, and has since it was implemented 12 years ago.  Elk population objectives are ridiculously low and are driven by social tolerance instead of biological carrying capacity.

Do you even know who Debbie Barrett is?  Do you know what the content of SB42 was that she sponsored and introduced in 2004?  Do you understand the long term impact this has for the public land elk hunter in Montana?

I have never heard of an outfitter or hound hunter who wants fewer cougar tags in MT, the outfitters and hound hunters I know in MT want more cougar tags. MFWP has resisted increasing cougar tag numbers for years! Could the primary problem be certain commissioners, biologists, and anti-hunting groups?

The Bitterroot and other parts of NW Montana went to a limited permit for lions largely at the request of outfitters.  I do not know of a single biologist in Montana that is anti hunting.  Feel free to fill me in if you do.  Houndsman are the most vocal supporters for lowering female sub quotas for lion harvest.


In western Montana there is plenty of public access on lots of public ground, a lack of logging on the forest and predators play a much larger role in determining herd numbers as this topic has proven. Herds in many of those western Montana units are the herds that hunters complain about having depressed herd numbers.

There is a wealth of new logging in western Montana.  You can see it from the freeway and every highway.  The problem might be a little more than just predators, but we can agree to disagree here.

In other MT units (especially central and eastern MT) there are access issues, elk herds have grown on large ranches that have been purchased by non-resident owners who don't allow public hunting. Those large elk herds maraud neighboring ranches when hunting seasons aren't open so neighboring ranches want elk numbers reduced. You can't blame the ranchers when those herds are consuming their livelihood. Those elk aren't being hunted, they are not the herds hunters are complaining about having low elk numbers.

I can blame the ranchers who want shoulder seasons to kill elk into February but don't allow any public access during the general season.  This problem goes far beyond central and eastern Montana.  It is highly prevalent in many areas of SW Montana from the Deer Lodge valley towards Billings and Dillon.  It's not just non-resident owners who create this problem.

These elk don't "grow up" on these ranches in many parts of the SW corner of the state.  They migrate there from public land because they've learned it is a refuge for them.

It's funny how ranchers don't mind elk during hunting season when they are selling hunts, but outside of that they hate them.

I haven't studied all the "Shoulder Seasons". I hope MFWP isn't trying to reduce elk numbers in public land units where herds are depressed? I hope MFWP intends to reduce herds in areas with excessive elk numbers where certain landowners are preventing elk harvest, areas where herds need reduced!

Montana could easily support as many elk as Colorado.  The Missouri Breaks north of Lewistown had phenomenal public land hunting in the early 2000's.  However, due to an asinine population objective the season was opened up to shoot cows left and right and "reduce the herd".   What's ironic is that private land elk numbers probably haven't changed all that much but the public land hunting is a shadow of what it used to be.  Again, this is courtesy of Debbie Barrett.

I'm switching states to hunt elk in this year for various reasons, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with wolves.

[ribka]

 
 

I don't believe our wild lands should be managed as an eternal ungulate farm for us hunters.

It is a similar respectable ideal expressed by Aldo Leopold.  An ideal though.  We need to keep ideals in mind but still work toward the next-best condition which considers other realities.

Specific to this situation is the constituency that supports Wildlife Management, which is both financial and political.  As we understand the current model, we must have a certain amount of revenue from hunting and fishing to support programs (the financial).  If that falls short, we know for a fact that wildlife management is near last on prioritized funding, way behind education which is well over half and constantly demanding more.  So for lack of enough sportsmen, and resentment by other stakeholders for interference in their affairs, dwindling political support will do nothing to sustain a course toward an ideal.

From our perspective as the educated, with an academic perspective on history, the biological principles, and the hypothetical ideal state, we need to respect the political reality of NOT trying to reach one stakeholder's ideal if it will not achieve the next best stable state in a sustainable manner.  Tactfully, we need to keep sportsmen and rural landowners engaged.

Do not overestimate the general public's interest in the natural world.  This changes like the wind and could be completely gone in as little as five years.  More enduring is the interest of sportsmen and rural landowners.

[JLS]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZ26qp9IvKAhUQ0GMKHaHIChsQFggtMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffwp.mt.gov%2FfwpDoc.html%3Fid%3D63829&usg=AFQjCNGsOrLUo3m3OkhoqZ8BOMoFi3w3pA

Some light reading on the opposing viewpoints on lion harvest in Montana.

[BOWHUNTER45]

This (quote) Here explains it to perfection !!  Wow ..why doesn't everyone just see it as it is ??

 "If WA State did not have adequate resources to support many wolves, then the wolves that came here would not be successful and populations would not grow."

[BOWHUNTER45]

The whole system has been flipped over .. From all points of wildlife conservation ..All animals should be hunted to control and manage . But now we are over run by uneducated liberal  ------ beepers ! Only ones that will be managing anything in our near future will be liberals and wolves !

[bearpaw]

The article posted if ripe with incorrect statements.

Wolves did not cause the collapse of elk herd numbers in the Bitterroot Valley.  Lion predation and very liberal antlerless elk seasons have been directly identified as the reasons that herd crashed.  We can sure attribute it to wolves though, if it makes people feel better.  Why worry about correctly identifying causative issues and resolving them when we can make stuff up to suit our biases?

Also, Wyoming Game and Fish have done some very interesting and informative studies on elk numbers in and around Yellowstone Park.  Not everything fits the narrative stated as fact in this article.

Lastly, the Northern elk herd is AT the objective that FWP has decided it should be at.  An objective that was largely influenced by stockgrowers in the Paradise Valley.  So, regardless of how many predators one wishes to kill, the state of Montana is forbidden by law to manage that herd for any more elk than are currently in it.

FYI - A good deal of Montana hunters are not real satisfied with MT wildlife management!

I never stated nor implied that they were.  They should not be satisfied, and I'm not either.  Montana is crumbling to pressure from a stockgrower influenced legislature that wants elk herds drastically reduced.



Is it possible that MFWP is pretty similar to WDFW in the way they under manage wolves and other predators like cougar. It seems we have the same problem in Washington, the overall predator footprint is too large in some areas whether it's wolves, cougar, or too many hunters making the greatest impact in any given area. The fact is that these agencies are responsible for declining herds, the agencies are the ones setting seasons or preventing adequate hunting of predators.

I agree that cougar harvest in parts of Montana is way too conservative.  However, it is largely driven by a very vocal contingent of outfitters that want trophy areas for cats.  Wolf hunting is very liberal, outside of a stupidly low quota in the Buffalo Fork/Hellroaring area.  Anyone that is complaining about wolf, or predator numbers in general in Montana should spend more time hunting and less time complaining.


 Like Washington, Montana is way too conservative on cougar hunting quotas. I'm not at all surprised cats are eating too many elk in the bitteroot! I would add something, if cougars are forcing the calf rate down to 10 calves per 100 cows or whatever it said, then if wolves eat another 3% that is also cause for concern regarding wolves! That is an additional impact on the herds that didn't exist for decades until agencies planted Canadian wolves.

For the majority of Montana, wolves are but a miniscule factor in terms of elk hunting.  Montana has long had a harboring issue with elk.  Archery hunting for elk on public land is very, very, good.  Rifle hunting is steadily getting worse as elk learn to take refuge on private land.  It has been well documented that elk are learning to migrate to these ranches even BEFORE the rifle season opens and they stay there for the duration of the season.

I am in no way supportive of the shoulder seasons in Montana that are going to be used to drastically reduce elk numbers.  The real wolf in Montana is the Republican legislature, which has mandated the Montana reduce elk numbers by about 45% statewide.  In addition, FWP has consistently contradicted its elk management plan by counting elk that are not available to the public and incorporating those numbers into the total population counts.

Debbie Barrett and her legislative cohorts have done far more damage to Montana elk hunting than any Canadian Superwolf ever will.

Are you suggesting everyone else in MT is responsible for poor wildlife management except for the agency that actually sets the seasons on elk, cougar, and wolves! That would be like saying WDFW wants to increase elk numbers and reduce wolf and cougar numbers but the hunters and eastern Washington residents won't let them! We all know how badly WDFW wants to reduce wolf and cougar numbers! 

I have no idea where you derived this from my post.  I did not speak to WDFWs management of predators at all so your statement makes no sense to me.  FWP is doing a poor job of managing elk hunting because they are held hostage by a legislature that does not really care about the public land elk hunter.  FWPs elk management plan sucks in the first place, and has since it was implemented 12 years ago.  Elk population objectives are ridiculously low and are driven by social tolerance instead of biological carrying capacity.

Do you even know who Debbie Barrett is?  Do you know what the content of SB42 was that she sponsored and introduced in 2004?  Do you understand the long term impact this has for the public land elk hunter in Montana?

I have never heard of an outfitter or hound hunter who wants fewer cougar tags in MT, the outfitters and hound hunters I know in MT want more cougar tags. MFWP has resisted increasing cougar tag numbers for years! Could the primary problem be certain commissioners, biologists, and anti-hunting groups?

The Bitterroot and other parts of NW Montana went to a limited permit for lions largely at the request of outfitters.  I do not know of a single biologist in Montana that is anti hunting.  Feel free to fill me in if you do.  Houndsman are the most vocal supporters for lowering female sub quotas for lion harvest.


In western Montana there is plenty of public access on lots of public ground, a lack of logging on the forest and predators play a much larger role in determining herd numbers as this topic has proven. Herds in many of those western Montana units are the herds that hunters complain about having depressed herd numbers.

There is a wealth of new logging in western Montana.  You can see it from the freeway and every highway.  The problem might be a little more than just predators, but we can agree to disagree here.

In other MT units (especially central and eastern MT) there are access issues, elk herds have grown on large ranches that have been purchased by non-resident owners who don't allow public hunting. Those large elk herds maraud neighboring ranches when hunting seasons aren't open so neighboring ranches want elk numbers reduced. You can't blame the ranchers when those herds are consuming their livelihood. Those elk aren't being hunted, they are not the herds hunters are complaining about having low elk numbers.

I can blame the ranchers who want shoulder seasons to kill elk into February but don't allow any public access during the general season.  This problem goes far beyond central and eastern Montana.  It is highly prevalent in many areas of SW Montana from the Deer Lodge valley towards Billings and Dillon.  It's not just non-resident owners who create this problem.

These elk don't "grow up" on these ranches in many parts of the SW corner of the state.  They migrate there from public land because they've learned it is a refuge for them.

It's funny how ranchers don't mind elk during hunting season when they are selling hunts, but outside of that they hate them.

I haven't studied all the "Shoulder Seasons". I hope MFWP isn't trying to reduce elk numbers in public land units where herds are depressed? I hope MFWP intends to reduce herds in areas with excessive elk numbers where certain landowners are preventing elk harvest, areas where herds need reduced!

Montana could easily support as many elk as Colorado.  The Missouri Breaks north of Lewistown had phenomenal public land hunting in the early 2000's.  However, due to an asinine population objective the season was opened up to shoot cows left and right and "reduce the herd".   What's ironic is that private land elk numbers probably haven't changed all that much but the public land hunting is a shadow of what it used to be.  Again, this is courtesy of Debbie Barrett.

I'm switching states to hunt elk in this year for various reasons, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with wolves.

I agree that MT could have as many elk as Colorado but as long as MFWP mismanages elk and predators on public lands that is not likely going to happen. Public land holds the greatest opportunity to expand herds. I definitely think MFWP should do a better job of working with hunters, landowners, and legislators to accomplish better elk management everywhere in MT.

I never said any MT biologist was anti-hunting, not sure where you got that?

I don't know Debbie Barrett but I would like to hear her side of the story too! You seem to be biased against the legislature, those are representatives of the people, could it be that your views are not the same as most Montanans?

Some of your comments are confusing? The Block Management program is funded by non-resident hunters and has been very successful at opening up thousands of acres of private land to public hunting in Montana. However, I respect private property rights of landowners and do not think landowners should be required to open their lands to public hunting in order to have a hunting season. What is wrong with a landowner only allowing family members, friends, or paying hunters to hunt?

We simply may have to agree to disagree on some issues! Good luck with your new hunting area.

I couldn't get the link about hound hunting to work? I know that hound hunters often only want to hunt toms, that doesn't mean they want the entire season to close when a certain quota is met. As I mentioned, hound hunters I know think the quotas and seasons need expanded.