Land Access Question

[Bob33]

The maps are the maps.  Every enforcement agency uses them and I have no question about trusting them.  They use gps and township/range data and are very accurate.


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Simply put - with respect - you are wrong.
Maps are representations, period. They are not records of surveys.  They all have disclaimers stating the fact that they are not accurate.

Accurate or not, if that is what legal authorities are using what is the issue?

[Dan-o]

I've always relied on my GPS with the Onyx map chip.

I've been hassled by a couple farmers but when I show them my GPS track (and that I stayed on public land per that map) I've not been hassled any farther........

I do agree with the advice to play nice if possible, and reach out for a conversation if the farmer is willing.   It's ALWAYS better to have folks on your side, if possible.

(I've run into a couple farmers who think they own state land.    GPS can be very handy at that point.     )

[Bob33]

You can't rely on GPS maps.

You can't rely on fence lines.

You can't rely on assessor data because it could be outdated.  The information you got ten minutes ago may have changed five minutes ago.

So, hire your survey crew to take with you on your hunts. Before you leave the truck, make sure they've done a complete survey of the land you intend to hunt.

The fact is that there is no 100% way to know with certainty whose property you are on in many instances, or where the exact boundaries ares.

That's why most enforcement agencies have accepted the use of current GPS maps as a defense against trespass. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a single conviction for trespass for someone using current GPS mapping data.

That said, there are a few reasons to be careful. First, GPS units are not completely accurate and can be off by 50 feet of more. Second, if you are hunting right up to the edge of private property you run the risk of shooting something that enters private property and cannot be legally retrieved without permission.

The common sense solution is to contact adjacent landowners in advance. and seek to obtain permission to hunt. If they do not grant it, ask if they would allow you to retrieve downed game.

If you have done your part to know and respect private property boundaries, and approach situations with common sense and respect for landowners you should have very few if any problems.

[Brad Harshman]

The maps are the maps.  Every enforcement agency uses them and I have no question about trusting them.  They use gps and township/range data and are very accurate.


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Simply put - with respect - you are wrong.
Maps are representations, period. They are not records of surveys.  They all have disclaimers stating the fact that they are not accurate.

Accurate or not, if that is what legal authorities are using what is the issue?

Legal authorities is key.  Enforcement officers are peace keepers, not proper ty experts.  However, if you're truly looking for what the law says, than look at legal documents.  Research titles some have record of surveys completed, not all though.  But all titles have legal descriptions.
You'll find out quickly that the legal authorities are the lawyers.
It's best to play nice for the time being. Work with the state agency to find out if they know where the legal boundary is.  You may have discovered an illegal encroachment on the state land and I'm sure they'll rectify it.  Remember though, it's Government, and they move slowly.
Good luck either way.

[bobcat]

This particular situation is tricky because of the evidence on the ground of where the landowner feels his property line is located. (the edge of the wheat field)

If it weren't for that, I'd say just go with where the GPS map shows the line.

It's no different than if the landowner had built a fence on the property line. Then you come along with your GPS and don't agree with the location of the fence.

Would you cross the fence and hunt on the private side? Or would you stay on the side that you know is public?

[Bob33]

The maps are the maps.  Every enforcement agency uses them and I have no question about trusting them.  They use gps and township/range data and are very accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Simply put - with respect - you are wrong.
Maps are representations, period. They are not records of surveys.  They all have disclaimers stating the fact that they are not accurate.

Accurate or not, if that is what legal authorities are using what is the issue?

Legal authorities is key.  Enforcement officers are peace keepers, not proper ty experts.  However, if you're truly looking for what the law says, than look at legal documents.  Research titles some have record of surveys completed, not all though.  But all titles have legal descriptions.
You'll find out quickly that the legal authorities are the lawyers.
It's best to play nice for the time being. Work with the state agency to find out if they know where the legal boundary is.  You may have discovered an illegal encroachment on the state land and I'm sure they'll rectify it.  Remember though, it's Government, and they move slowly.
Good luck either way.

The problem with legal documents is interpreting them, and translating them to actual field locations. Here's a legal description of a section near my home: POR OF E 1/2 OF NW 1/4 OF SEC 16-24-06 LY N OF N MGN OF CO RD.

How will I know when I'm on that property, or just off it?  How will the legal authority that comes to cite me for trespass know if I'm on the property, or just off? How will the judge?

[bobcat]

The legal authority would most likely go by what the landowner tells him, along with evidence on the ground such as a road, a fence, or the edge of a cleared area.

I'm only speaking from the land surveying side of it though, as that is what I know. I don't know the law enforcement side.

[Ridgeratt]

The legal authority would most likely go by what the landowner tells him, along with evidence on the ground such as a road, a fence, or the edge of a cleared area.

I'm only speaking from the land surveying side of it though, as that is what I know. I don't know the law enforcement side.

Bobcat:

Thank you for this informative response. It appears your profession is or has to do the land surveying? Or perhaps at one time this is what you did?

[bobcat]

The legal authority would most likely go by what the landowner tells him, along with evidence on the ground such as a road, a fence, or the edge of a cleared area.

I'm only speaking from the land surveying side of it though, as that is what I know. I don't know the law enforcement side.

Bobcat:

Thank you for this informative response. It appears your profession is or has to do the land surveying? Or perhaps at one time this is what you did?

Not sure if you're being serious, but yes that is true. Almost 20 years now.

[Ridgeratt]

Why wouldn't I be serious it was a compliment. So may I ask what agency you ply your skills for?

[Bob33]

The legal authority would most likely go by what the landowner tells him, along with evidence on the ground such as a road, a fence, or the edge of a cleared area.

I'm only speaking from the land surveying side of it though, as that is what I know. I don't know the law enforcement side.

In Wyoming the enforcement officers go with onXmaps data, not what a landowner says because some of them lie. It would be interesting to know what Washington enforcement does.

[bobcat]

The legal authority would most likely go by what the landowner tells him, along with evidence on the ground such as a road, a fence, or the edge of a cleared area.

I'm only speaking from the land surveying side of it though, as that is what I know. I don't know the law enforcement side.

In Wyoming the enforcement officers go with onXmaps data, not what a landowner says because some of them lie. It would be interesting to know what Washington enforcement does.

I'm guessing in this situation if law enforcement was called, that there would be no citation. But I can't imagine it being an enjoyable hunt if you end up butting heads with a landowner and possibly paying customers. If there was a second time I would think there would be a citation.

[Bob33]

The legal authority would most likely go by what the landowner tells him, along with evidence on the ground such as a road, a fence, or the edge of a cleared area.

I'm only speaking from the land surveying side of it though, as that is what I know. I don't know the law enforcement side.

In Wyoming the enforcement officers go with onXmaps data, not what a landowner says because some of them lie. It would be interesting to know what Washington enforcement does.

I'm guessing in this situation if law enforcement was called, that there would be no citation. But I can't imagine it being an enjoyable hunt if you end up butting heads with a landowner and possibly paying customers. If there was a second time I would think there would be a citation.

On two occasions in Wyoming I've had someone tell me I was hunting on their property. I trusted that my GPS data was accurate, and chose to rely on it. I made both the same offer: I'd call the authorities and wait if they would. If it could be proved I was trespassing I would leave and they can ask that I be charged. If they there were wrong, I might ask to have them cited for interfering with a legal hunt. In both cases they immediately backed down. I fully believed they were bluffing and trying to treat public land as their own.

[bobcat]

I had the same scenario happen here in Washington, in Garfield county. Deer hunting on a section of state land, the farmer/rancher who leased it from the DNR for grazing his cattle drove up on us in his old pickup. He told us we were on private land and he had other hunters who had paid to hunt there. I had my GPS in my hand as we were arguing with him. Told him he was wrong and to call the sheriff. We were done hunting for the day anyway so I told him we'd meet him at my truck, down on the county road, which was about a 20 minute walk. We got down there and never did see that guy again, or the sheriff.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

But I can't imagine it being an enjoyable hunt if you end up butting heads with a landowner and possibly paying customers.

This is my position.
It makes little difference if legal, or not.
Will it be an enjoyable hunt, or will it be a day of confrontation?
Sometimes it is just better to find a different spot, even on public land.
I know I would rather spend a day hunting without harvesting anything, than spend a day arguing with someone about hunting.