Safe Shooting Distance

[Wea300mag]

I was on the other board (MM) reading some threads and read through the one where the guy said his sister made a 731 yard shot with a 300 WSM to kill a trophy bull. First of all, I don't believe the distance part of the story. I also would not take a shot that is almost 1/2 mile no matter how big the elk was. I put my personal limit at 300-350 yards (300 Wea mag, of course) if the wind is not blowing too hard and the shot in not too inclined. Let's here some of your personal distance limits and long shots you have taken before. Make sure to mention what caliber you are shooting.

Here is a link to the MM thread:
 http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID12/8325.html

[jackelope]

my farthest shot to date is 280 yards with a 7mm rem mag. i felt pretty comfy with that shot, and i was prone shooting off a bipod..one shot kill.
my last deer i killed at 182 yards off hand, one shot kill. i had my scope on that deer at 312 yards and could hardly say that i had a good sight picture at that distance, did not feel comfortable and did not take the shot.(different rifle, scope and caliber from the first shot)
with my current rifle and caliber...i'm thinking 250 would be my long range max, and i don't feel people should be shooting over 300...just my opinion,  thats shooting, not hunting.
my .02 in the pot.

[arrowflinger]

My shot was at 365 yrds.............shooting a 270 Win., 130gr bullet. No wind, rifle rested on my fanny pack over a stump. I practice out to 400yrds and am comfortable shooting that far. My gun is sighted in at 3 inches high at 100yrds. MPBR about 285Yrds. I think I could take a shot a 400 yrds and feel good about it, but the conditions would have to be on my side.............or I'll stick to 200yrds.

[T-ROY]

2 deer and an elk in the low 400's. 411,418 and 435 to be exact. 3 for 3 in a pie plate at 500 at few weeks back. Its hard to find a spot that far to shoot on the west side. 7mm mag 150 grain corelokts.

[Ray]

No matter what - the type of rifle and scope combination and what the target is determines how far I will feel comfortable shooting at.

I don't have any range finder gadgets. I guess ranges on every shot and have my 100 yard zero about 1 inch high.

Example: I might shoot at a coyote at 400 yards with my large game rifle , but I would almost never think about shooting a deer that far away unless the conditions were really good.

[boneaddict]

Distance shooting or distances are like bear weights if you ask me.  Everyone always tacks on a bunch.  I'm with Huntwa for everything, except my zero is three inches high at 100 yards, zero at 300.  I shoot all handloads, no factory ammo.  90% of my shots are under 50 yards.  Almost every deer I have killed could have been done so with a bow, or 30-30 open sites.   This is different for coyotes obviously.  I have made two shots that were absolutely incredible.  One was a 500 yard shot on a bear.  Thinking about it, I probably shouldn't have taken it.  There was no way to get closer.  I stuck the cross hairs right at the top of his head between his ears and hit him centered in the chest.  30-06....150 grain bullet.   The other was an offhand shot in the Pasayten on the high hunt.  A buck about slipped me through the rocks. I pulled up took a breath and squeezed off a shot almost straight up hill.   Looking back, I shouldn't have taken it, but I was all instinct.  He faultered and started dropping down the hill, and I put another one in about an inch from the first. 
I SHOOT ALOT.  or at least I used too.  Offhand etc, not just bench.  This is going to sound arrogant, but I know where every bullet is going to hit.  CONFIDENCE is everything.  RESTRAINT  is the rest.

[GoldTip]

I've taken and completed 2 shots that were ranged at 505 and 511 respectively.  One was a elk and one was a deer.  Both animals dropped at the shot.  Have taken several others that were over 400 yards, some deer, some elk, one bear, one antelope.  Multiple kills in the 300+ range as well as multiple shots under 300 yards.  It depends on what rifle I'm holding and the conditions and whether or not I feel comfortable with the shot.  The 500 yard shots were taken with my 300 win mag, handloaded to 3150fps through a chrono with 180gr sciroccos sighted in for 3" high at 100 yards with a MPBR of 330 yards.  Any shot I believe to be over 300 yards always gets a check with my laser rangefinder.  They were taken from a prone position with reading the wind, which was non existant at the time of the shots.  I felt comfortable with the shot and made a one shot kill.  I have also killed many animals with a bow with ranges as short as 2 yards and as long as 62 yards. 

If you are comfortable with your weapon, and the conditions are right and you have practiced for the shot,  I will be the last person to judge you if you make that shot.  If on the other hand you have no idea where your gun hits at 200 yards, you have no business shooting over 150 yards in my opinion.  If you don't practice those ranges, you shouldn't be shooting those ranges.  Out in Mica we have a range with targets to 900+ yards, and I will always practice to 550yards every time I am there.  I also don't personally believe you should ever shoot past 300 yards with factory ammunition.  There is just too much variation in velocity in factory loaded rounds when you run them through a chronograph to make that a good situation.

[jackelope]

Here is a link to the MM thread:
 http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID12/8325.html

that is a classic monstermuleys thread too by the way.

[tlbradford]

I have not harvested a mule deer on the east side over 200 yards.  Almost all were around the 100 yard mark.  I would feel comfortable taking a shot out to 350 with my .25-06, 26 inch barrel, 117 hollow points.  Since that rifle was stolen I now use a .284 with not quite as flat a trajectory and would feel comfortable out to 300.  I don't have a range finder or ballistics tables taped to my stock.

My longest shot on a big game animal was my first elk.  It was steeply downhill, broadside standing shot on a feeding animal, right at dark.  I was sitting with the rifle resting over a stump.  I guesstimated the distance at a little over 200.  I hit him with a 120 grain .25-06 handload and he took to steps and dropped.  After running up to him and covering the distance in about 11 seconds I thought it was further away then I had guessed.  Pacing it off later the shot was closer to 375 yards.  The angle, amount of light, size of the animal, and lack of experience had made me misjudge the distance badly.

I do have a .338 that I would feel fine in taking a shot out to 500 yards.  I have a ballistics table taped to the stock.  One day soon I hope to add a range finder to my belt.

I will shoot at a coyote as long as I have ammo and can still see it. 800-1000 I memorized bullet performance out to 600 yards for my .204 shooting 35 gr bergers.  Beyond that it is kentucky windage and a prayer.

[boneaddict]

kentucky windage and a prayer.

Love it!

[jackelope]

i got thinking about this thread, and a question i have is what scopes are you guys using on your rifle that you can confidently put the crosshairs on a deer sized animal at 500+ yards and know where it's gonna hit?
i have trouble feeling confident 300+yards with a 3x9 lepold vari-x

[Lincoln4]

What he said...

[edmondshunter]

I shoot a base model, 700 rem. .270 win iron sights.  I hunt on the "WestSide" never had to take a shot over 85-90 yards.  I was breaking target clays @300 yrds, but would never think of taking a shot that long on a big game animal.  Lets not forget our sense of adventure and close the gap a little, make an ethical shot everytime.  The worst loss for a hunter is an animal not recovered.

[Coasthunterjay]

While i would like to agree with all of you, i do and i dont. I must say I feel overly confidant in my skills as a hunter and a good marksman and ability to shoot an animal at a long distance. Since i was really young i have been trained by my father, grandfather and some of my best friends that i have hunted together with for over 10 years. With that said i have had well over 100 plus years of hunting and shooting with military training from some of those and myself to back my training up instilled in me since i was born. As well as that in over 10 years of hunting by myself there has only been one year that i have not harvested a deer and that was not because of a bad shot or not being able to find a downed animal. It was because i was being selfish and wanted to shot a huge deer and passed up over 4 legal bucks with in 100yrds. Not to say that taking a long shot at over 700 yards is safe or unsafe but this is my view and experiance.......... Weather permitting and with an accurate weapon ( Properly cared for and well oiled and very clean, trusted) and with Cartridge rounds that have been custom made and measured for perfect accuracy and lots of practice and a steady hand. The last being one of the most important. This type of thing can be done with the right training, gear, and experiance. I hunt with a Winchester 270 and hunt with custom made Ballistic tip cartridges (Rounds). I have for several years and almost every year we tweek or do something different to our rounds or the way we sight in our Rifles or even the amount that we shoot them before we go hunting. And we shoot alot.

Here is my story......... About four years ago i was heading up this huge 4x4 WT, had been watching him for weeks scouting for opening day and i mean irregularly huge for a 4x4. Well opening night out walks this Buck and it wasnt the one i wanted and well in my head POPS the saying my dad had always told me about not being picky and just taking the first legal deer ever so as this deer was positioning himself out in the field i slowely layed down on my stomach. Got in my position and layed my sights down on this animal. While being comfortable in my shooting skills and taking long shoots before i figured that it was maybe 450- tops 500 yards. I pulled off One single shot watched the Buck drop, looked to the sky and thanked GOD, just as i had and do everytime a get an animal. I then called my dad on the radio to come over to get it and help me pull it out. later as my father and i stood over the deer he asked me where i had shot it from and i told him. He then out of Dis-belief asked me to point to it and then pulled out his range finder. Ranging the distance he said i had to be joking. I asked why he didnt believe me walked him back over to the spot and showed him the brass and imprint of my body lieing down that i had left on the ground. My Dad looked at me and shook my hand and said " Great shot son, You just shot a deer at over 650 yrds" This had been my farthest shot and the only reason i say this is because I had shot deer in the past at over 450 yards before with my father standing right beside me saying i would hit it. I have and do!!! This is all with my Grandfathers Old Winchester 270.
You can take a long shot with lots of experiance and training......

I didnt read the Post from MM but if she sucessfuly killed her animal at 700yards and killed it. Then good to her. we shouldnt be making Fun just because she did it. If no one got hurt then i say. AWESOME SHOT LADY!!!............................AJ

Just my  .02 Cents

[Wea300mag]

Coasthunter,

The problem with your thinking is the probability of having wounded animals running around that will never be found is very high. At 300 yards, using my 3.5-10x50mm VX-III with duplex reticle, the cross hairs take up a large percentage of a deer's body. At 4, 5, 6 hundred yards it's a crap shoot. If you are shooting at a coyote, yes, shoot until you run out of ammo, but not for game animals. I hear stories of these 400+ yard shots all the time but have a hard time believing them. They probably do happen on occasion but how many animals were wasted to get to that occasion.

[Coasthunterjay]

As well as that in over 10 years of hunting by myself there has only been one year that i have not harvested a deer and that was not because of a bad shot or not being able to find a downed animal. It was because i was being selfish and wanted to shot a huge deer and passed up over 4 legal bucks with in 100yrds. Not to say that taking a long shot at over 700 yards is safe or unsafe but this is my view and experiance.........

I would most times agree with everyone. I am sorry please dont take this negatively or arguementative. you all are my friends and great hunting partners and i hope that in the next coupple years that i will be able to hunt with all of you or meet you all. And i have already meet a few of you so i have started.
My average shots are around 200-300 for all animals. deer, elk, bear. shoot i shot my couger at less that 10 yards and well yes much farther for coyotes. MUCH . I could easily take a 100-150 yard shot i could probably take a 50 yard shot if i took the time and worked at it to get the animal that close to me. But i dont. I like to take the longer shot. I am confidant and VERY experianced. I hunt with an old weaver scope that is probably older than i am but my dad also hunts with the Leupold Tactical VX-III with the lighted reticle and has on several occasions told me he could see clearer and better through my little scope. Im not argueing, Please dont think i am. i just want to be very clear that you understand what i am saying. Just another experianced, differently trained seasoned Hunters opinion Not to say that it isnt a good idea for other person and deffinantly not to do on an everytime basis or to do at all. I believe this is different with everyone and is only valled for those that dont feel comfortable taking that shot. I in my 12 years of hunting have never wasted one animal that i had layed my cross hairs upon. Yes i have missed and made a semi-bad shot but that also wasnt because of distance. i am a good tracker, Have lots of patients and know how to take my time. let the animal die and then find it when i get it. But i really have never had to do that. I usually prbably 90% of the time drop my deer or animal were it lies. I have been very fortunate and very lucky. Yes i know it to. And i also know that a couple of my shots have been risky, but i made them....Please dont think of me irresponsable or In ethical. I dont always take or act that way. I will wait for a Good shot, the situation i gave was only one story. I am a very responsable and highly educated and overly alert hunter, Have lots of fun and am very cautious and very safe with my hunting and the people im hunting with. The last thing i want out in the field is for someone to get hurt or for an animal to be shot and not found..............................

Coasthunter,
The problem with your thinking is the probability of having wounded animals running around that will never be found is very high.

And yes the propability is higher but I am running very high statistics and with my record i am not afraid to take it.

This is for everyone.................

There is a point at which a hunter can go out into the field look at an animal, look at the situation handed before him. Think about all of it and think to himself. Can i make this shot? Do i feel comfortable with this? Look at the area around you and then decide. YES or NO. Etc......This will all come with time when you will be able to answer these questions..

I have been raised up to go through all of these questions and more from my grandfather and father since i was a little boy. And i have also been tought to do things in 100%. that meaning that if i am not confidant in a shot that i am about to make then i wont and i dont...trust me i have passed up my fair share ( mega *censored* tons) of shots because i thought the situation wasnt right........

most educated and experianced hunters now there limits..........what is your limit?

Oh and i kill coyotes running at 4,5,6 hundred yards just joking. yeah i like running targets to ...................................AJ

[tlbradford]

Coasthunter, your post have a lot of good points and a good understanding of the progressions in thinking you need to go through before you take a shot.  However, your long range deer was a poor shot.  If you estimated your target between 450 and 500 yards you would hold approximately 2' above your target depending on where your rifle is sighted in.  Your bullet would drop another 4-5 feet when traveling the distance between 500 yards and 675 yards.  You missed by 4'.  Without a range finder and dope cards or a ballistics plex, I would caution against attempting a shot like that again.

Personally, if the animal is unaware of my presence, I have adequate cover and an approach route, ample daylight, and the wind advantage, I will always try to close the distance.

[boneaddict]

This could shape up to be as classic as the MM thread. 

Jackelope.  I shoot a classic leopold 2x7 power.   I switched over to a Simmons that went out to 20 power or some damn thing for the 25-06 for shooting yotes....but hated it.  I put the ole leopold back on.   Apparantly Idabooner liked this scope because it is on every rifle he and I own.   That deer is mighy small out there at 500 yards.

I still want a 50 cal to shoot coyotes out at 1,000 yards here in the Wenas, but I don't think Santa is every going to bring me one.
Hey Slenk and Kirkl...if you look North and see a Red glow, its just me, and I finally go my Red flood lights in.  I have 10-15 coyotes every night right at can't see anymore light right at my fence corner.  If the game department weren't so fired up about trapping, I'd put a dozen snares out there.

[actionshooter]

 I have seen this subject debated on a lot of hunting sites and things can get a little hot. I will never say what is too far to shoot. This is a very indiviual situation. If you know your ballistics, weapon, optics and have practiced, unbelievable distance can be achieved. By practice I don't mean dusting off old reliable twice a year, I mean shooting hundreds of rounds a year (and not only off the bench).
 
 Here is my opinion. IF conditions are perfect, I have a rest, the wind is right, the shot is clear (no trees or brush) and the angle is not extreme. I will shoot to 600 yards. I have killed a buck at 557. I have also killed several animals (deer and bear) between 400-500 yards. I have never lost an animal that was shot from distance.

 I know my rifle (custom .300WM), I keep a ballistics chart taped to the stock. I have leupold scopes that are set up to shoot distance(3.5-10 tactical and 4.5-14 VX3s). I use a Leica rangefinder. Also I shoot more than most people do. I am very comfortable with how I have this set up.

 To a point I do agree that this is more shooting than hunting. I do not go specifically go looking for long shots but if the shot presents itself on a good animal and there is no way to close the distance, I am prepared.

[high country]

hey bone, I have a 6.5-06 that is the cat's meow for 1k song dogs. bang..................................(it takes a bit to go that far)..............flop!

[Coasthunterjay]

 To a point I do agree that this is more shooting than hunting. I do not go specifically go looking for long shots but if the shot presents itself on a good animal and there is no way to close the distance, I am prepared.

Thumbs up. Thats all i ment.Thank you actionshooter !!! 

[Intruder]

Modern high powered rifles (270 and up) are fully capable of humanely killing game out to 300 yards when combined with a good bullet and a hunter with average to above average ability.  Out to 300 the actual caliber/cartridge is kinda a wash when you're talking the stuff based on long action and mag cases (and the short mags now).  Sighted in at 2" high at 100 yards all these guns have a point blank range (+/- 3") of at least 250 yards.  That being said the vast majority of game is take at under 125 yards.  Unless a hunter is really into shooting a lot, understanding ballistics, and doing a lot of reloading the best thing they can do is get a good quality bolt action rifle in something like a 30-06, put a decent quality 3x9 scope on it, and shoot factory ammo with a good quality bullet. 

I personally feel confident shooting out to 500+ yards under perfect conditions (little/no wind and shooting prone).  My max range drops very dramatically if less than perfect conditions exist.  Also, range finders are a must for over 300 shooting, at least for me... I can't judge distances over 200 worth a darn.  I shot a custom made 300 win mag (A-Bolt action/Shilen barrel), Harris bipod, with handloaded ammo worked up for my rifle (168grn Barnes TSX).  I also shoot several hundred rounds a year, combined in all my rifles.  I've killed elk and antelope both out to over 450.

At the extreme end of the scale I do have a very very good friend who is an exceptional marksman.  Before I even write this I know it will invoke a lot of disbelief.  However, I have personally witnessed him kill 2 elk at around 900 yards.  He's tallied something like 14 kills at over 750 yards on deer, elk and bear.  Let me emphasize a couple things.  He shoots a lot and he has the rifle and the know how to do it!  He shoots thousands of rounds a year.  His current rifle is a wildcat 338 Lapua... necked down to 30 cal.  All of his really long kills were with a 30-378 Weth Mag, shooting a 220 grn bullet at over 3400 fps.  His rifles are truly custom made.... actions are milled and barrels are Lilja.  Each of these guns w/ scope and custom made reloading dies is worth over 3000$.  He is far and away the exception, not the rule.   

Having said all this:  I would never advocate anyone attempt shots at over 300 yards unless they are truly prepared: gun, optics, ammo, practice, practice, practice, and more practice! 

 

[jackelope]

Unless a hunter is really into shooting a lot, understanding ballistics, and doing a lot of reloading the best thing they can do is get a good quality bolt action rifle in something like a 30-06, put a decent quality 3x9 scope on it, and shoot factory ammo with a good quality bullet. 

i'm that guy...
andi  shoot an a-bolt in 30-06 with a leupold vari-xIII 3x9 and i'm shooting federal vital shock 165 grain barnes triple shock bullets.
it was never a matter of having the rifle for me...my question was the glass. i'm still not sure how a guy can put a scope on a deer at 700 yards and plan on hitting where you aim, or even knowing where you aim for at those kind of distances. i mean no disrepect or doubt...i just think about it every year...i'll put the glasson a deer at 400 or 500 yards and go jeez louise, i don't know how they do it.

[ICEMAN]

I shoot a base model, 700 rem. .270 win iron sights.  I hunt on the "WestSide" never had to take a shot over 85-90 yards.  I was breaking target clays @300 yrds, but would never think of taking a shot that long on a big game animal.  Lets not forget our sense of adventure and close the gap a little, make an ethical shot everytime.  The worst loss for a hunter is an animal not recovered.

You break clay targets at 300 with iron sights?

[Wea300mag]

Wow, I'm either a real poor shot or there is a lot of BS on this forum.

[T-ROY]

jackelope,  
  
   With your 30-06 zeroed at 200 yards, take A target out to 400 and with a good rest hold a foot over the top of the target, not the bullseye but the top of the paper and shoot a 1/2 dozen rounds at it and you might surprised at what you can do. I was and  3 weeks later in Montana we jumped a whitetail doe, (which i had a tag for) She ran out and stopped at 411 yards, the bullet placement was better than some of the 100 yards shots I've made,right in the boiler room. and even if you choose not to shoot at an animal that far away its still fun to see the results.

[ICEMAN]

Wow, I'm either a real poor shot or there is a lot of BS on this forum.

Agree, about the later, I am not sure if you are a poor shot or not...

[Lets Hunt]

I shot my Elk last year at 462 Yards the longest shot I have ever taken at a animal. It was a clear shot no wind and the elk was walking away from me very slowly going uphill i was at the same level as her on the other side of the draw. I had been watching her from about 150 yards but she never presented a shot till so got out there and felt safe i guess. I shot a 7MM Rem Mag i've put a lot of mony and time into at the range i have a 4-16 burris black diamond with the balistic mill dot retical @ 600 yards and good conditions I feel comfortable shooting targets i don't think I would ever shoot at game from this distance but every situation is different. with this elk I aimed for the back of her head with my crosshairs my 450 yard line on the scope was below the vitals but since she was going uphill i pulled the trigger missed her spine by 1/2 inch hit a lung and nicked the heart she went less then 20 yards and dropped. nearly no meat wasted. I also do all my own hand loading and shoot a 160 gr. barnes MRX.

I think everyone should spend a little time at the range (not once right before season) and learn what they are comfortable with. There are guys in wyoming that are shooting 1000+ yards from a bench at antalope and hardly ever miss. I've seen many a hunters out in the field make poor shots at 100-200 yards and miss altogether or hit a animal in the leg.

[jackelope]

There are guys in wyoming that are shooting 1000+ yards from a bench at antalope and hardly ever miss

they are called snipers...not hunters.

[Lets Hunt]

they are called snipers...not hunters.

Like I said these guys miss less then some do at 1-200 yards so i think they are less likley to wound game. Everyone has their own comfort level and needs to stay in it. And remember there are lots of people out there (especially in this state) that think we are MURDERERS not hunters. Everyone has their own opinion on long range hunting but with todays guns and optics these shots are possible and people are going to take them. 500 and in is my comfort level but only in the right situation.

[Intruder]

Below is an email response to a buddy in our discussion regarding long range shooting.  Hopefully the point that I'm making is logical and sensible....   

"It's a dicey question.  I've thought about it quite abit in many different forms.  To me first and foremost it has to be:
1. Within the law
2. Humane  (You can argue a bunch a fat duffers spending a ton on a gun they can't shoot isn't humane.  Most dudes that do this though are really into it and are very good shots)
3.Biologically sound (I'm not aware of any scientific evidence that this is an issue)

If if meets those 3 criteria then I'm not going to judge.  There are just too many cases today where you can argue the point of too much technology.... compound bows, range finders, sabots, expanding broadheads, heck even scopes themselves.  I'm less concerned with the few guys who are actually proficient at this than I am of outside forces interfering in the hunting arena.  I will say that I'm concerned with guys thinking they can simply buy these guns and that suddenly makes them capable of making these shots.  These are likely the same guys that gut shoot animals at 100 yards.  70% of the guys out there should never attempt a shot over 250-300 yards.  They simply don't have the sufficient time in practicing at longer ranges nor the real understanding of ballistics.  Firing a half dozen shots from a bench at a 3x3 piece steel at 300 meters and hittin it 4 or 5 times doesn't suddenly make a hunter qualified to take those shots in the field. 
 
I guess what I'm getting at is it's a can of worms if you really try to legislate it.  Suddenly everything will come under scrutiny and you'll have a bunch of pinhead lawyers and bleeding heart bunny huggers dictating hunting.  For example, (this is completely anecdotal, but I believe there's a fair chance it's accurate) I've heard that nation wide as many as 1/2 of the animals killed during bow season are ones that are actually lost/wounded animals.  In other words if there are 800 animals taken this year in WA w/ a bow there may be another 800 wounded that will die.  Even if its only 20-30%, that information spun the wrong way would be disastrous for bow hunting even if it has 0 biological impact on herds, etc.   
 
To your point though... as hunters we need to do a better job policing ourselves and making sure we are all representing the (+) of the sport while trying to change the (-) behaviors.  I think the whole topic of where do you draw the line is an excellent debate that should be discussed more by hunters.  I'd much rather see hunters making & setting these limits than someone from behind a desk."

[BlackTail]

That was very well said.

[Lets Hunt]

i agree this is a dicey subject at best and lets hope it stays a ethical question and never becomes a legal one.

[actionshooter]

If it ever becomes a legal question we are going to be in big trouble! 

[Coasthunterjay]

There are guys in wyoming that are shooting 1000+ yards from a bench at antalope and hardly ever miss

they are called snipers...not hunters.

There still bringing the meat home for dinner. "Are they not?"

[jackelope]

There still bringing the meat home for dinner. "Are they not?"

if that's what it's all about for you, then that's gonna be ok with you. that ain't what it's about for me. you might as well finish the story about how they're driving down the road, hop out of the truck, set up their shooting bench so they have a rest,......then take the thousand yard shot.

thats not hunting, thats shooting. you can go to the range if thats what you want to do.

[Intruder]

thats not hunting, thats shooting

2 points:
- I can't speak for everyone that shoots "long range" but the particular individual that I know who does it is an exceptional hunter.  He's killed elk with a recurve bow as well as a muzzle loader.  The vast majority of the animals he harvests are miles from the nearest road and he uses nothing other than a Harris Bipod as a rest.  I've hunted with him on occasion and the places he treks are often down right scary.
 
- Other than relying on a hunter's ethics and good judgement how can we determine what the distance is that represents too far?  There are literally dozens of variables(hunter's ability, equipment, environmental conditions, terrain, etc) that go into determining an ethical killing range in any given situation.  I'm just not sure how it's possible to say what is too far.     

[jackelope]

i guess all's i was saying is that the guys shooting pronghorns off  of shooting benches are not exactly what I would call hunters.
thats my opinion, i don't expect everybody to agree with it. i didn't mean to make anyone else sound like less of a "hunter"
if one can shoot long distances, do it, and be proud of yourself that you have achieved that level of skill...just don't do it off of shooting benches out of the back of your truck at animals and call it "hunting"
again, my .02.
not everyone's gonna agree, and i'm cool with that.

[Intruder]

I would agree that the antelope scenario like you described is far more shooting than it is hunting. Not illegal.... not how I'd describe hunting though.