Lead shot ban in WA for Upland birds, small game, turkeys?!

[ICEMAN]

Yep, your gamies are pretty friendly down that way...maybe too friendly...or just bored... 

[bearslayer]

As someone new to this forum and also from Canada I am just wondering if you already have a ban on lead for ducks and geese? We do have a ban here already for those but not for upland birds. I can not believe the price on bismith here.

[Curly]

For ducks and geese you have to use non-toxic shotshells.  It has been a federal law since about 1988 if I remember right.  A few places in the State require non-toxic shells for upland birds.

[Roper]

I can't believe you "sportsmen" don't get this one. Two representitives from Seattle and Rainier Valley trying to protect condors. Have you ever heard such stupidity in your lives.

Think about this (if you can). No one shoots lead in waterfowl areas anymore. Lead shot is dispersed in upland hunting for quail, grouse, pheasant, chukar, huns, etc.  When was the last time you saw a condor while you were hunting in Washington? What harm does that 3/4 to 1 1/4 ounce load do when it is shot into the air/forest? I challenge anyone to go find one of your pellets. Once on the ground it gets a white-ish coating (oxidation) that just about stops any further erosion. That's why intact Revolutionary War lead balls are still found in battle fields.

So their "science" is a bunch of bull! They just want to do away with shotshells, without them all you have is very expensive non-tox. Soon your shotgun is just about useless...get the point yet...?

You all need to read this...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/11/041104005801.htm

[Curly]

That's a good article Roper.  Thanks for posting the link.

I don't understand who you're directing this at:

I can't believe you "sportsmen" don't get this one.

    

[Roper]

That's a good article Roper.  Thanks for posting the link.

I don't understand who you're directing this at:

I can't believe you "sportsmen" don't get this one.

    

Curly, it's in response to anyone that doesn't think this is just another attempt to take our guns and the sporting lifestyle. You'd be surprised how many think this is just fine. The greater issue is that those in power are lying to us. I'm not some paranoid backwoods conspiracy nut. I'm one who has seen what has happened in Britain, Austrailia, and Canada. Ask anyone in those countries if they're any "safer" now that only the outlaws have guns.

[popeshawnpaul]

If you are contending it is just another "attempt to take our guns and the sporting lifestyle" in the southern states with condors then I don't agree.  I actually don't think this is an attempt to take our guns even here.  The science in the condor states has established there is a correlation.  The question is, do we have the same issues here with other wildlife other than condors that aren't native here.  That is the question we need to answer before deciding to ban lead in this state.  So, I do think we get it.  We just don't have all the answers yet.

[Roper]

Shawn, since you "get it", maybe you can enlighten me. The bill states...

(1) A person is guilty of unlawful hunting in the second degree if
the person possesses shot, either in shotgun shells or as loose shot
for muzzle-loading, other than nontoxic shot when hunting game animals,
game birds, or waterfowl in those areas as determined by rule of the
commission in which waterfowl, California condors, or other endangered,
threatened, or sensitive species could be harmed by lead shot.

This paragraph allows just about any species to be reason to ban lead. And if there's a species dying off at a rapid rate, where's all the dead bodies? You'd think we'd be seeing them all over. I'd like someone to show me one instance, and not some California condor from 10 years ago.

(2) The commission shall by rule determine the areas in which a
person may not possess shot, either in shotgun shells or as loose shot
for muzzle-loading, other than nontoxic shot when hunting game animals,
game birds, or waterfowl.

This sounds like free reign to determine just about any area, if not the whole state.

I'm not sure I like the idea of more "commissions" ruling with an open check book.

You don't think this is vague for that very reason? If not, why is this so vague? What value is to be gained from such a bill, so thin on details.

Are you an upland hunter? Or just a "bullet" hunter? Do you have anything to lose here? And southern states with condors have nothing to do with hunting in Washington. What are the condors gonna do? fly up here for the weekend and have a lead eating party? I don't get it...

Roper

[bobcat]

There's talk of re-introducing condors here in Washington, in the lower Columbia River gorge.

Also, you ask about "dead bodies" of birds that have died of lead poisoning. I doubt if these are actually going to be seen lying around everywhere, if indeed they are dying of lead poisoning. Wouldn't you think some type of scavenger would be eating them as soon as they hit the ground dead? Or they could be taken by some type of raptor after just becoming sick and/or weak from the lead poisoning. They aren't necessarily just going to drop out of the sky and be lying everywhere where they are going to be visible.

[ICEMAN]

bobcat, how much lead birdshot do you think the average hunter has accidently injested over the years?

[bobcat]

Probably a couple. Why do you ask?

[ICEMAN]

I'm sure I have digested a few dozen in the many years I have eaten wild birds, and I feel fine. I wonder how many carcasses these birds are finding with "shattered" lead throughout the meat...enough to kill them. I did not read the research...  My point is, sometimes researchers find what they wanted to find...  I imagine most all hunters have consumed lead in our lifetime...

[popeshawnpaul]

My best gues is that it was left open to interpretation to be able to apply to different types of species in different areas having problems in different ways.  That seems more rational than some conspiracy theory to take guns from sportsmen.  I'm not sure a specific bill would work in this situation.  It's not just a condor problem.  Lead is showing up in a number of different wildlife species including ducks still...  Your comment about dead birds everywhere makes no sense to me and I think Bobcat answered that as well as I could.  Lead is killing the condor.  We know that as a fact.  It may not affect other species that are less sensitive as it does the condor but it has negative effects.  I'm not sure the science is there yet from what I've seen but I'm open minded about it.  

To answer your other question, I am an upland hunter.  I hunt with lead bullets too.  My dog is an english setter and she is the brother of "Hank" from TV.  I take her out every year and bird hunt.  I prefer grouse but hunt all species.  The lead ban would affect me but I would just buy a non-toxic shot.  I really don't see the big deal.  We would have to have some faith that they will apply any ban in an area based on science with good reasoning behind any decision.  Given the track record of the WDFW, I'm not confident.  However, managing wildlife is kind of like politics and nobody is going to be happy all the time...

And Ice...I know I've swallowed a few sinkers but I don't lay eggs...  

[popeshawnpaul]

You are missing the point Ice.  The latest issue of Fair Chase lays out the current science really well.  They have proven the condors get it from the hundreds of tiny particles from a bullet in the guts and game meat left behind.  These condors have died from the lead.  It is fact.  It is also fact they can do treatments on the condor to make them survive and get the lead level down in their body.  They outlawed lead there and saw a marked difference in survival and lead levels in condors.  We just aren't sensitive to lead as some species are.  The comparison to humans is not analagous.

The question is how it affects our ducks, eagles, etc.  We still show species in WA with dangerous lead levels despite the waterfowl ban. 

[bobcat]

Iceman,  My post wasn't meant to be an argument for a ban on lead shot, or lead bullets. I was just trying to point out some flaws in Roper's post. I don't want to see an outright ban on lead shot but I also expect the authorities to do what is best for wildlife. If lead really is causing a problem with certain species then I sure wouldn't fault them for trying to fix it. Hopefully they wouldn't institute a statewide ban effective immediately, but start out with problem areas first and gradually phase it in throughout the entire state, if that is what is deemed necessary. I have hundreds, maybe thousands, of lead shot shells that I would like to use up before they are banned. I guess I need to start upland bird hunting on the eastside again...haven't been for about 4 years, only because with a 1 year old and 3 year old girls, I just can't find the time to do what I used to do anymore! Hopefully this year I will find the time to go over for at least a 4 or 5 day hunt. I'm getting tired of "hunting" Scatter Creek.