Another muzzleloader newbee

[fzy]

Thanks for the info guys. 

Lets talk projectiles.  Are muzzleloaders more accurate with sabots?  I was thinking of trying the 275gr Bloodline or would Thor bullets have better inherent accuracy due to being bore specific?  Also, what would be a less expensive option for practice?

[M_ray]

You might have to try several bullets and find what your barrel likes. I have two TC's with the same or similar barrels and they don't take the same bullet. I wouldn't say that Sabots are more accurate but that is what I shoot out of both of mine, however you want to have a bullet that seats well in your barrel and sabots provide that. I know some love Powerbelts but I am not a fan cause I don't think they seat well in my guns. They are easy to load for sure and that might be the attraction but for me I would get a flyer about every 3rd or 4th shot and I believe the bullet would be tumbling out of the barrel. Sabot's just feel like they are nice and snug in my barrel and they group well for me.
 I don't know much about Thor or Bloodline's but they look like a good start and the Thor are legal in Lead free states.

I shoot Knight 310grn full lead conicals in one
http://www.knightrifles.com/product/lead-50-cal-310-grain-muzzleloader-bullets/

And TC shockwave 250grn in the other
http://accessories.tcarms.com/product/tc-shockwave-controlled-expansion-bullets-super-glide-sabot/
 

[Sabotloader]

Thanks for the info guys. 

Lets talk projectiles.  Are muzzleloaders more accurate with sabots?  I was thinking of trying the 275gr Bloodline or would Thor bullets have better inherent accuracy due to being bore specific?  Also, what would be a less expensive option for practice?

I believe the Lehigh/Bloodline 458x275 grain bullet is the most versatile bullet there might be!  but, I am terribly biased and I admit it.  The design of the Bloodline offers perhaps the best 'Terminal Ballistics' out there.

The real question is will if fit in your rifle considering there really is only one sabot available for that bullet.  You do not say which rifle you might be shooting, but if it is a very tight bore you may have a difficult time getting it loaded.  A good alternative might be the 452x250 grain Bloodline - with it you several choices of thin to thicker sabots.

Also I prefer sabots to fullbore but again that is just me.

I shoot both of those bullets with 119 grs. of T7-3f and a #11 Mag cap or a RWS Dynamit Noble 1075+

I can not prove to you that sabots or full bore are more accurate - although most shooters at the long range ML matches shoot full bore heavy lead conicals which reduces the external effect on the bullet.  But to 200+ yards I will take a good bullet with a sabot.

[jmscon]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

[Jarhead Chase]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

I am running into this problem with my ML. I found a Traditions Ambush Pursuit III in the bargain cave new with a damaged box for super cheap, so I decided to close the deal on my first muzzleloader. I knew that I would have to change the breech plug, but it turns out that the head spacing is different. Despite the fact that I have a new breech plug that accepts musket caps, and it strikes the musket caps with deep strikes, it does not strike them correctly apparently, and they will not ignite. Basically I am now only able to use 209's with this ML, which makes it illegal for WA and ID, unless I want to use it for Modern Firearm. I would sell it, but I would be selling an unhuntable rifle, and I just can't bring myself to do that.


Bottom line: Make sure you can switch it from the 209's, otherwise you have a paperweight.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[M_ray]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

I am running into this problem with my ML. I found a Traditions Ambush Pursuit III in the bargain cave new with a damaged box for super cheap, so I decided to close the deal on my first muzzleloader. I knew that I would have to change the breech plug, but it turns out that the head spacing is different. Despite the fact that I have a new breech plug that accepts musket caps, and it strikes the musket caps with deep strikes, it does not strike them correctly apparently, and they will not ignite. Basically I am now only able to use 209's with this ML, which makes it illegal for WA and ID, unless I want to use it for Modern Firearm. I would sell it, but I would be selling an unhuntable rifle, and I just can't bring myself to do that.


Bottom line: Make sure you can switch it from the 209's, otherwise you have a paperweight.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Add Oregon to your list but you can use the 209 ignition in Montana,  and you can use the 209 with a scope in firearm restriction areas of WA! 

[Jarhead Chase]

Not sure where you plan to hunt but 209 caps are not legal in Washington, FYI

I am running into this problem with my ML. I found a Traditions Ambush Pursuit III in the bargain cave new with a damaged box for super cheap, so I decided to close the deal on my first muzzleloader. I knew that I would have to change the breech plug, but it turns out that the head spacing is different. Despite the fact that I have a new breech plug that accepts musket caps, and it strikes the musket caps with deep strikes, it does not strike them correctly apparently, and they will not ignite. Basically I am now only able to use 209's with this ML, which makes it illegal for WA and ID, unless I want to use it for Modern Firearm. I would sell it, but I would be selling an unhuntable rifle, and I just can't bring myself to do that.


Bottom line: Make sure you can switch it from the 209's, otherwise you have a paperweight.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Add Oregon to your list but you can use the 209 ignition in Montana,  and you can use the 209 with a scope in firearm restriction areas of WA! 

Excellent info. Thank you!. I took it out for a little target practice,  and it shoots like a dream. I'd love if the darn thing was legal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[jmsurra]

I have hunted muzzy for 14 years with pellets, loose, 11's and musket. With that being said I use pyrodex pellets and musket caps. With 11's I have had more powder not igniting than with musket. The key to all of if it keeping your caps and powder dry. Also I always shoot off the round before leaving the wood or unload the rifle. Never keep the powder in overnight as the temps change and the powder dampens. Good Luck and Welcome to muzzle loading

Lots of guys do this but I don't and never have ... I actually have so much confidence in one of my muzzy's I leave my charge in for the entire hunt! When I drew a late hunt in Oregon I left my load in the entire week and it rained for almost 2 straight days and yes I spent the better part of both days hiking around in it and mine still went off and I killed a nice buck. Now with that being said I would never say one way is better than the other but I would say it's more about what you are more comfortable with or whatever makes you confident. If you have more peace of mind shooting it and cleaning it everyday on a 2 week hunt then by all means do that. I just don't like to spend each night of my hunt cleaning my weapon.

If you choose to leave your charge in for the hunt there are those that believe you should leave your gun in the truck and don't bring it inside at night. The thinking is that the change in temperature will create moisture in the barrel  My way of thinking is simple ... if your gun is that temperamental that you can't leave a load in it or you have to worry about it going off??? Then sell it and buy a Thompson Center or Knight Bighorn! Cause I have never had to worry and most of the time I leave my charge in all season and it always fires 

I am with you - mine might stay loaded all season... but I would not recommend this until you really become proficient with BP subs and your rifle...

If in doubt get the load out!

Agreed ... very good advise 

If you're willing to gamble on the ML firing at the crucial time, you can leave it loaded through the hunt, but there's plenty of evidence that shows us that leaving a ML loaded can corrode the barrel. The question is: can it cause it to corrode in the week or two a hunt takes? As long as there is doubt, I'd rather not take the chance of damaging the barrel of my rifle. In fact, I'm starting to favor in-line MLs that break like a shotgun, to facilitate easy unloading at the end of the day.

I only used 209's before this, so when it comes to musket caps, I've yet to develop an opinion, with no experience to speak of. I'm intrigued by a shooter I've seen who starts his 2-pellet load with 10 grains of powder, to insure pellet ignition.  With musket caps often hit-and-miss compared to 209's (and let's face it, that's why Washington won't let us use the 209's), this technique is something I plan to explore. Any innovation that improves our odds while using what we already have at hand has real appeal for me.

[Duckslayer89]

I put 6 grains of 4f down before my two pellets when I was using pellets. Now i just use Goex 3f

[LittleJohn]

Great info guys
Thanks
Just reading over the post.

Just bought my first front stuffer and trying to figure it out

[jmsurra]

I put 6 grains of 4f down before my two pellets when I was using pellets. Now i just use Goex 3f

Adding some loose powder into the mix does beg the question of why we wouldn't just switch to the powder completely? If we have to meter out some powder, why not just meter out the whole charge in powder, and leave the pellets out of the mix altogether? I guess, for me, it's going to come down to dependability. I'll have to see how these Northwest editions perform with musket caps, and pellets, or powder, etc. As I mentioned before, my T/C Bone Collector (NOT NW legal) uses 209's only, so these Northwest editions with the musket caps may or may not impress me with their performance. The 209's had their drawbacks, too. A 209 cap is usually hot enough to ignite any load, but on those rare occasions that it didn't touch off the charge, it was powerful enough that it could spit the bullet and pellets out the front of the barrel, sometimes ten or twenty feet (I never saw a twenty-footer, but there always seemed to be guys who had a friend who knew a guy who had a cousin who's best friend it happened to!). There's what seems to be a valid argument against using the hotter 209's - the 209's that aren't ML-specific, because they can move the charge down the barrel prior to ignition, which can be a recipe for disaster. It's like loading your ML and failing to fully seat the charge and bullet.

I think, in our own way, we're experiencing the same learning curve as the guys in the1800's. We might have different obstacles, but it seems we still have some in common, such as us against mother nature, and us learning by trial and error; what works, and what doesn't work. I remember the narration from the movie Jeremiah Johnson, "It was only a .35 Caliber, but it was a Gen-U-INE Hawkens," and then the .50 Caliber Hawkens he later found frozen to a dead man's hands that "Kilt the Bar that kilt me."

I can honestly say that, with a smokeless cartridge-using rifle like a guide gun or other modern rifle, I could take a single bullet on a hunt and feel confident that I wouldn't need anything else. Given time, I hope I'll come to feel that sort of confidence with ML's here in the wet Pacific NW.

Time and practice will tell the rest of that tale, I guess.

[Duckslayer89]

Sabot loader: Are sabots allowed in Idaho? I seem to remember reading they are not somewhere. If someone is planning on hunting both states it would be smart to just stick with one bullet legal in both states so you don't have to readjust everything. I already fell in love with my 290 grain Barnes T-EZ and don't want to have to switch if I hunt Idaho this year but I might have to!

[jmsurra]

I found this online, but it's from a post made in 2009. A lot can change in that time. I think back around that time, Washington didn't allow jacketed projectiles, and that's changed. I'll keep looking for current rules.

 the
muzzleloading rifle or musket must be:
• Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
• Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. Except hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes. (Applications are available at Fish and Game
offices).
• Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or
other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders
are prohibited.
• Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
• Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the
bore diameter. Sabots are prohibited.

[jmsurra]

Current Idaho Regs state that you're required to use an all-lead or lead-alloy projectile.

Sabots are still not allowed.

You must have the primer exposed "when cocked and ready to fire." 

That last one differs significantly from Washington in that they're indicating that you may protect your primer in whatever fashion suits you, until the time comes when you're ready to fire. From what I've read in here, most of the Washington Fish & Game guys say they'll ticket you if they find you with a piece of tape over your primer exposure holes. That "when cocked and ready to fire" doesn't sound like a big thing, but to me it's a big improvement over Washington's Regs.

On the other hand, I'm not too excited about the loose-powder-only rule, or the all-lead projectile only rule, though I dislike them less (even collectively) than our exposed-primer-all-the-time rule.

I took this straight from Idaho's 2015-2016 booklet online:

Muzzleloader Caliber Requirements
In any hunt, including general any-weapon seasons and short-
range hunts, it is unlawful to pursue or kill big game animals
with any muzzleloading rifle or musket that is less than .45
caliber for deer, pronghorn, mountain lion or gray wolf; or is
less than .50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain
goat or black bear.

Muzzleloader Only Season
Any person hunting in a muzzleloader only season, including
controlled hunts, must have in their possession a license with
a muzzleloader permit validation. During a muzzleloader-only
season, it is illegal to pursue or kill a big game animal with
any firearm, muzzleloading pistol, or weapon other than a
muzzleloading rifle or musket. In addition, the muzzleloading
rifle or musket must be:
•
Capable of being loaded only from the muzzle.
•
Equipped with only open or peep sights. Scopes and any
electronics are prohibited. 
Except
 hunters with a visual
disability may apply for a permit to use nonmagnifying
scopes.  (Applications are available at Fish and Game
offices.)
•
Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or
other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders are
prohibited.
•
Equipped with a single or double-barrel.
•
Loaded with a projectile that is within .010 inch of the
bore diameter. Sabots are prohibited.
•
Loaded with a patched round ball or conical non-jacketed
projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy.
•
Equipped only with a flint, percussion cap or musket cap.
209 primers are prohibited.
•
Equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of
the cap is exposed or visible when the weapon is cocked
and ready to fire