Water Rights

[Special T]

Ive decided to start this thread because it affects everything we do. Fishing, gardening, building a home or cabin. Water is the next big issue that will affect our lives. (kind of inspired by some fishing threads)

Man Gets Prison Sentence For Collecting Rainwater On His Property
Collecting rainwater on your own property in the U.S. can now lead to jail time, as has been proven by a man from Oregon who was sentenced to prison for doing just that.  Who owns the rain? The US government, apparently.

Not so long ago, it was common practice across much of the world to collect rainwater into man made wells on your property to use for farming, irrigation and having fresh clean water.  It was just as common as canning your own food, having knowledge of at least some basic survival skills, and being self-sufficient.

It wasn’t even that many generations ago that all of this was common practice – people born before WWII were pretty adept at these skills, as they were a necessity to survival.  One of the main (and easiest) ways to ensure survival was to collecting rainwater on your own property.  The practical uses for storing and collecting rainwater are numerous and many people across the world in rural areas still do it today for all of the reasons listed above.  However, over the past few years, laws making the collection of rainwater illegal have been causing an uproar across the US.

Now, a man from Grey Point, Oregon has been sentenced to thirty days in prison for storing collected rainwater on his very own property – and the public is outraged.
(more to the story)   http://yournewswire.com/man-gets-prison-sentence-for-collecting-rainwater-on-his-own-property/

[Magnum_Willys]

Internet hype  . The guy built multiple dams on streams through his property that flow into the city of medfords water source.  Uh hello ?  He wasnt collecting rain off his roof. 

[REHJWA]

Miss leading article, there is a huge difference between diverting streams and run off then "collecting rain water". It also did not sound like his were your average stock ponds either. They sound like damns across streams. Water like mineral rights need to be included on the title....

[Special T]

Well a few years back they tried to make rain water collection from roofs in Snohomish county illegal. Additionally im pretty sure it wasnt a creek he was damming up but a draw that had seasonal flow. Part of my reason for creating this thread is to show the contradictions  in law and the infringement on property rights that is happening.

Chapter 90.03 RCW    WATER CODE
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=90.03

DOE (Department of Ecoclogy) study and report to the legislature in 09 on water rightswith share holders including tribes.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/ReportsToTheLegislature/Home/GetPDF?fileName=0911027_a507348d-b723-479c-a07a-60591dee4876.pdf

[Special T]

perhaps this article is a little better at describing the situation.
http://www.mnn.com/your-home/at-home/blogs/oregon-man-in-possession-of-13-million-gallons-of-illicit-rainwater

It is also similar to a previous issue in Wy where a man had made stock ponds and got into trouble with the EPA
http://legalnewsline.com/stories/510643529-epa-threatens-20-million-fine-on-wyoming-man-who-built-a-pond-on-his-farm

Perhaps the guy in oregon isnt the perfect case but i use it to illustrate a point. Water rights are huge and what you think may be legal or not need clarification.

[Magnum_Willys]

Creating stock ponds that ultimately drain to public water sources is not good. 

[Special T]

How can impeding water flow bad? Ok so the first example I gave is a bad one but still... isnt more water in the ground good as well? The "storage" of water is either on the surface or in the dirt. If you are like most people your runn off from your neighborhood runs into a settling pond to inject it into the ground water. Why? To filter it a d slow its progression down hill to even out surges in waterflow. I will try and find the article tonight but in California they are diverting some flood waters to try and recharge aquifers.

[Curly]

Rainwater Harvesting is one method in many jurisdiction's stormwater manuals for handling roof runoff.....such as City of Tacoma, Pierce Co, WA State DOE, etc.

It's considered an LID technique, which is becoming more popular.

Below is an excerpt from the 2015 Pierce Co stormwater manual.

"Roof rainwater collection systems are designed to collect stormwater runoff from nonpolluting surfaces (typically roofs), and to make use of the collected water. Reuse of the
runoff can be for irrigation, potable, and non-potable uses, but requires different levels of storage and water quality treatment depending on the intended use. Rainwater collection
systems have been designed and installed in many locations throughout the northwest, including Pacific Plaza in Tacoma, and the Bullitt Center in Seattle. The most abundant
use of water collection and reuse systems in the northwest has been on some of the island communities where potable water is scarce. In these cases, the systems have been sized
and designed to capture all rooftop runoff with adequate treatment for reuse as a potable water source. Rainwater collection and reuse systems are also commonly referred to as
“rainfall catchment” and “rainwater harvesting” systems.
"

here are a couple of pics from the Wa State DOE LID manual:

[Special T]

I would add that roof water from asphalt roofs 3 tab and others is only suitable for lawn watering since it has benzine in and leaches into the water. It could be useful in flushing toilets. Shake and metal roofs are best for vegetable and drinking.

[Gopher]

Good thought.

[Special T]

Well ill have to take a look at the watershed he is in and the details.

The watershed I live in "the skagit river watershed" is not in short supply of water and it wouldnt hurt if people could put wells on thier property or have a stock pond. 45"+of rain a year is a fair bit yet we are in a fight with the swinomish that doesnt allow people to use wells they had already put in.

Water will be the way gov controlls private property in the future... so my point is everyone should brush up on it now because what ever "rights" you think you may have now may not be what they are in the future.

[csaaphill]

How can impeding water flow bad? Ok so the first example I gave is a bad one but still... isnt more water in the ground good as well? The "storage" of water is either on the surface or in the dirt. If you are like most people your runn off from your neighborhood runs into a settling pond to inject it into the ground water. Why? To filter it a d slow its progression down hill to even out surges in waterflow. I will try and find the article tonight but in California they are diverting some flood waters to try and recharge aquifers.

If I remember right he wasn't actually diverting water as much as the pro big brother people want to lead us to believe, he used it for fires when the summer came around as well.
I've followed this story a bit and it's not as bad as it sounds.
especially since it does say they originally approved his permits, which I don't believe in, or shouldn't need permits. But the reservoir had been there for almost 40 years, or 37 years so...

[csaaphill]

How can impeding water flow bad? Ok so the first example I gave is a bad one but still... isnt more water in the ground good as well? The "storage" of water is either on the surface or in the dirt. If you are like most people your runn off from your neighborhood runs into a settling pond to inject it into the ground water. Why? To filter it a d slow its progression down hill to even out surges in waterflow. I will try and find the article tonight but in California they are diverting some flood waters to try and recharge aquifers.

I's more about absolute Govt rule over water and land rights.
Seems like we've just seen a dose of BLM and cattle rights just recently in Burns OR too?

[RG]

As of December 2 last year Kittitas County enacted law that severely restricted access to wells and ground water.  If people weren't actively using their well, or at least had an active building permit in hand for construction which would use the water, the county required them to purchase permits, at the cost of thousands, and wifi meters to put on their wells.  Even those pieces of property with previously permitted wells installed were not allowed to use these wells without paying up. 

My understanding is the Washington State Department of Ecology sneaked over the pass and decided to force this issue in the county against the wishes of the residents of the county.  The law was very quietly passed and most property owners who have land they intended to build on in the future, even those who got county well permits and even drilled their wells, cannot access water on their land.  Access they paid for already was taken away.

The irritating thing here is, the state DOE sneaked this through by putting tremendous pressure on the county government and the whole thing was done behind closed doors and enacted into law.  It's another sneaky way to control what citizens do on their own land.  I'm sad to say Kittitas County is beginning to look like it's becoming Bellevue east.  The King County rules are sneaking over the pass.

[timberghost72]

perhaps this article is a little better at describing the situation.
http://www.mnn.com/your-home/at-home/blogs/oregon-man-in-possession-of-13-million-gallons-of-illicit-rainwater

It is also similar to a previous issue in Wy where a man had made stock ponds and got into trouble with the EPA
http://legalnewsline.com/stories/510643529-epa-threatens-20-million-fine-on-wyoming-man-who-built-a-pond-on-his-farm

Perhaps the guy in oregon isnt the perfect case but i use it to illustrate a point. Water rights are huge and what you think may be legal or not need clarification.

I was just reading this thread this morning then saw this article on Fox News a few minutes ago.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/05/10/wyoming-welder-facing-16m-in-fines-beats-epa-in-battle-over-stock-pond.html

[huntrights]

LEGALIZING IT (YOUR RAIN BARREL)
After years of legal limbo, rain barrels are now OK in Washington state.
http://www.sightline.org/2011/07/14/legalizing-it-your-rain-barrel/

Excerpt from article:
"Just a few years ago, a Washington state homeowner who simply stuck a rain barrel at the end of a gutter to collect water for watering a garden or washing a car was arguably breaking the law."

Washington clarifies muddy rain collection law
http://legacy.king5.com/story/news/local/2014/07/29/12811034/

Rain barrel information and sources
Saving for a Sunny Day: Rain Barrels and Cisterns in the Garden
http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/stewardship/nw-yard-and-garden/rain-barrels.aspx

Rainwater Collection in Washington State
http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wr/hq/rwh.html

Rain Water Harvesting
http://www.seattle.gov/util/EnvironmentConservation/MyLawnGarden/Rain_Water_Harvesting/index.htm

[jmscon]

As of December 2 last year Kittitas County enacted law that severely restricted access to wells and ground water.  If people weren't actively using their well, or at least had an active building permit in hand for construction which would use the water, the county required them to purchase permits, at the cost of thousands, and wifi meters to put on their wells.  Even those pieces of property with previously permitted wells installed were not allowed to use these wells without paying up. 

My understanding is the Washington State Department of Ecology sneaked over the pass and decided to force this issue in the county against the wishes of the residents of the county.  The law was very quietly passed and most property owners who have land they intended to build on in the future, even those who got county well permits and even drilled their wells, cannot access water on their land.  Access they paid for already was taken away.

The irritating thing here is, the state DOE sneaked this through by putting tremendous pressure on the county government and the whole thing was done behind closed doors and enacted into law.  It's another sneaky way to control what citizens do on their own land.  I'm sad to say Kittitas County is beginning to look like it's becoming Bellevue east.  The King County rules are sneaking over the pass.

From what I understood the resort of Suncadia had bought the rights to the whole valley. I don't know when this went into effect, I think around 2006. If you wanted to drill a well on your property you had to pay up to the big multi million dollar resort!

[RG]

Suncadia has water rights to develop their area, It's what they call a "group 1" water system there.  If you have a group 2 it's taking up to a year to use your well.  If you have a well on your land but you haven't hooked up and used it it's still a long delay.  The permits are somewhere around $3000 a pop to even use the well you already drilled and permitted previously, and you now have to purchase a wifi water meter, $800 and install it on your well so they can monitor how much water you use.  Suncadia doesn't have a hand in the issue, the state dept. of ecology and I understand the tribe partnered to bring all of this about.  The permits are issued by the health department.

It was all done super quiet in a back room then announced when it was being implemented.  Blind sided land owners who purchased property in the past to build on but aren't local.  They were never informed anything was even happening until it was a done deal.  Thankfully, I already use my well so I wasn't affected.  Their purpose is to stop development and growth in the valley.  The people who shoved this one down the county's throat, with threats of backlash in terms of withholding state money to the county if they don't go along, all came from Olympia.  Another state government, Inslee inititated, intrusion into the lives of people in rural areas of Washington State.  They've announced their plans to do this state wide.  For some reason they just want to control what we all do on our own land even though it has no effect on any of them. 

[Special T]

RG i think you are going to see the DOE do more of this using the ESA and Tribes as proxies. No new wells is how they can force you to live in higher density areas. It would appear that the model used in the Skagit watershed is also being used in the Yakima.

[Fl0und3rz]

tag.

[RG]

I agree, there seems to be a mindset there that people need to live in cities and shouldn't be allowed to develop any more empty land.  They can't totally prevent it but they can sure tax you for doing it.  Their targets are apparently communities, or counties, who they can bully into cooperating by making threats to withhold state money and assistance or whatever else. I've said it for 30 years, our states politicians run the place with nothing but closed door deals and by grazing in the pockets of special interests.  I'm not sure there's any honesty and transparency left in Washington.

It's interesting because I've spent some time around the Kittitas County Health Dept and Community Development, (building permit) people since then.  Every person involves just shakes their head and confirms there's no water shortage anyplace here but the State DOE just decided it would be a good place to flex some muscle.  Unfortunately there's apparently nobody in county government with a package that was willing to take it to the residents of the county for input before it happened.  It got slipped through like grease through a goose and twice as quiet.  You know, it's irritating when you think you would like to get away from all the westside BS and liberal needy people over there so you come across to the conservative side.  Then those guys start looking around for new victims and they find them here. 

[huntrights]

RG made an interesting observation.  People that live in rural areas or have a goal of building their "dream' home in a beautiful rural area might be very interested in the following podcast.  The moral of the story is that any retirement plans or goals involving real estate in rural areas is very risky business in the current political landscape.  Take note, and vote for the "right" person that will protect your private property rights, not continue down the path of taking your rights from you.

A candidate running for Thurston County Commissioner in the District 1 position in the 2016 election year did a Pod Cast with Ken Balsley recently.  There are a couple of interesting soundbites regarding the Sheriff’s budget and its relationship to the population living in unincorporated Thurston County; there is also an interesting section on gophers –

PODCAST:
http://kenbalsley.com/wp-content/uploads/coffee-with-ken-coop.mp3.

The time locations of interest in the podcast are actually starting about 8:04. At about 8:34 – the candidate implies that part of the solution to the sheriff’s budget problem is not having the unincorporated county be so populated and so big, and that counties are meant to be rural.  About 9:53 – the candidate implies that the purpose of growth management is to preserve our rural county and our environment.  About 10:05 – the pocket gopher topic is brought up.  Note: The time stamps given are minute locations in the podcast.

 
People that choose to live in unincorporated Thurston County might be concerned about ideologies which seem to align with pushing people into the cities and out of the rural areas.  They might be very concerned if they are aware of the continuous onslaught of agenda-driven, onerous regulations that make it extremely difficult, if not impossible to improve upon, or build something new on rural private properties.  This is happening in other counties in Washington as well.  Be very aware of what your local government entities are doing TO you. 

VOTE people into office that will uphold their Oath of Office and truly work to protect your rights.  Bad laws and regulations can be repealed if we elect the right people.

[Special T]

Thurston county is horrible and needs some people of reason at the helm!

[2MANY]

We had our family farm annexed into the City of Tumwater just because of the reason stated above.

[huntrights]

Thurston County needs some serious fixing.  We need to get the right people into office.  The District 1 and 2 County Commissioners that were instrumental in creating many of the issues for property owners in Thurston County are not running for re-election in the 2016, this is good.  The District 3 Commissioner, Bud Blake, is very good, but has been outvoted the last 2-years by Commissioners Wolfe and Romero.  We need to work very hard to get the right people into office that will uphold their Oath of Office and truly work to protect our rights, not take them away.

If you live in Thurston County, or know people that live there, please encourage them to vote for, and give support to:

John Hutchings for District #1 Commissioner
http://votehutch.com/

Gary Edwards for District #2 Commissioner
http://www.garyedwards4commissioner.com/

While this may not seem this related to hunting and/or our 2nd Amendment rights, it is directly related and critically important.  Remember the proposed Thurston County No Shooting Zone Ordinance that surfaced in 2011; it would have been devastating to hunters and target shooters in Thurston County if it had passed.  That ordinance was being authored and pushed by the Thurston County Commissioners (Karen Valenzuela, Cathy Wolfe, and Sandra Romero) and their staff at that time.  County Commissions and City Councils, also referred to as political subdivisions within the state, are very powerful and influential; they can create ordinances and regulations without a vote of the people.  Many unwarranted and onerous regulations are slipped in under the radar by some of these "political subdivision" (i.e. county commissions and city councils).  If these people are agenda-driven, and have ignored/forgotten their promise to the people (i.e. Oath of Office), our rights and freedoms are at risk.  Rural residents in Thurston County, and other counties have experienced this first hand.  Pay close attention to the local political arena and make sure only candidates that will support and defend our Constitution, and all of our guaranteed rights and freedoms are elected.

Another good candidate that needs to stay in office is Andrew Barkis (https://www.eventbrite.com/e/campaign-kick-off-keep-andrew-barkis-state-representative-dist-2-tickets-25248395631) who is running for State Representative in District 2.  He was appointed to a state House of Representatives seat vacated by Rep. Graham Hunt earlier this year.

[Windwalker]

This excerpt may explain where some of the consternation began over rain water rights.
And yes it still caused plenty of grief but the challenges defanged them a bit.

The EPA Wants to Expand Government Control of U.S. Waters
4/14/2014

Two federal agencies have proposed changes to the Clean Water Act that would give the government greater control over how individuals, businesses and municipalities use the “Waters of the United States.” If approved, the proposal could create regulatory headaches for property owners and businesses, hurt property values and open the door to third-party lawsuits over water-related issues.

In a pre-publication proposed rule released March 25, 2014, the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Army Corps of Engineers (ACE) propose to redefine “Waters of the United States” in a manner that would expand agency jurisdiction under all federal Clean Water Act (CWA) programs.

The EPA crafted the proposed rule in an effort to clarify the reach of the CWA after the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision in Rapanos v. United States. The Rapanos decision created some confusion about the tests regulators should use to determine whether certain waters are subject to regulation under the Clean Water Act.

The proposed changes could subject agricultural, construction, and real estate development operations to new, costly and burdensome Clean Water Act regulations where there previously were none.

More here: http://www.wnj.com/Publications/The-EPA-Wants-to-Expand-Government-Control-of-U-S

[csaaphill]

So.... wanting to put in a windmill, or use solar power to power your house, rain barrels, and the like are not allowed?