Pin Spacing?

[raydog]

A couple buddies and I were out shooting bows the other day and I noticed his pins had a strange spacing to them. My pins (20-60yrds) on my sight are close to being spaced the same distance, but his weren't. He shoot a newer pse and it doesn't seem to be really slow bow. His arrows are on the light side too. His 20, 30 and 40 yard pins have similar spacing. But after 40 the gap almost doubles. And then another huge gap between 50 and 60. Very big spacing between his last 2 pins. I don't have a picture. Anybody know what this might be from? He has a whisker biscuit, but I don't think that would be it?

[mburrows]

Im not an expert, not even close.

But he could be losing energy somewhere, does he have a short draw length? His bow or rest might need some tuning and the whisker biscuit might be a factor.

Im sure youll get a better answer from others but id think those could factors.

[jpharcher]

It is normal for all bows to have a certain distance where the speed starts dropping off faster causing pin gaps to open up, varies by bow and setup.

[BULLBLASTER]

Lighter arrows will sometimes fall off faster. Fletching type can also have a great affect. Example feathers will slow an arrow down much faster than a low profile target fletch

[jackelope]

I'm far from an expert, but I'm with Bullblaster. The lighter arrows will lose momentum faster and fall off.

[RadSav]

Usually when pin gaps are not a consistent progressing increase there is either a tuning issue or a form consistency issue.  Light spine weight, poor FOC, lack of rotation and porpoising can all influence pin gaps beyond what the physics of speed and gravity should be.  However, I find in most cases it is the archer themselves that create the most problems with pin gaps.

An arrow that comes out of the bow slightly tail low, either by bow timing or arrow rest position, tends to lift or plane up before stabilizing and following the natural parabolic curve.  It is exaggerated when shooting broadheads but all points will experience it to some degree.  It is not always a deal breaker in regards to consistent shooting but it does play heck if you are trying to use pre-printed pin charts or you want perfect progressing pin gaps.

It is not always a tail low issue, but that happens to be the most common.  Especially with hybrid cam bows like Hoyt's Cam 1/2.  Most of the Hoyt bows I have shot shoot best with the upper cam slightly advanced.  This means as you draw the bow back the lower cam hits the draw stop just a fraction of an inch before the upper cam does.  The newer cams, like we are seeing on the fantastic new Defiant, are less of a concern.  But the older you go the more attention that needs to be paid to finding the right timing sweet spot.


The pin gap issue has become more common today because of the notion that we can use the pin guard as a secondary alignment system and that this aberration when shooting multiple pin sights is somehow inherently more accurate than centering each individual pin in the peep.  Instead of me writing this out again you can go to my "Little Things" thread and read the posts #181 & #182 titled "Why do I Shoot Low at Close Range and High at Long Range.   http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,171960.msg2344587.html#msg2344587

In my experience the most common ailment of the archer that effects pin gap ends up being proper follow-thru.  It has always amazed me how consistent us archers can be when doing things wrong and how inconsistent we can be when doing things right!   Dropping the arm as we shoot or creeping forward just before release can become an extremely consistent affliction.  And since the mind is so good at putting a subject in the center of a circle sometimes just having pins set out of position can lead us to break the rules of form.  For many, myself included, placing the pin in the right position can be an instantaneous cure for creep and follow-thru issues. 

As the distance changes our minds ability to auto correct for pin placement changes as well.  We find optimal distances where we perform shots perfectly and other distances where the mind struggles.  This can lead to wide discrepancies throughout the entire pin set.  It is most often seen in the mid-ranges but no distance is necessarily immune. 

The further the arrow travels the longer the time from release to arrow impact.  It is that impact that tends to trigger the end of a shot and the "Next Arrow" response.  This is why long distance practice tends to be so much more of a benefit to shooters than 20 yard indoor practice.  And...it leads to far fewer ingrained bad habits.  Practice develops repetition and motor memory.  Practice at short range repeats quickly and accelerates motor response.  Practice at longer range repeats at a more methodical pace and delays motor response.  This slower more methodical practice carries on toward the short distance shots and makes them more deliberate and less likely to lead to a premature "Next Arrow" response.  This greatly improves form and follow-thru.  And follow-thru is immensely important to consistent pin gaps as well as consistent shooting.  Always surprises me writers don't spend more time addressing this forgotten part of shot form.  Post release form is as important as pre-release form, IMO.  And it does effect pin gap for a lot of archers.  Especially bowhunters with quivers attached to the bow. 

For more detail on addressing premature "Next Arrow" response check out "Where Is My Next Arrow" section in the "The Little Things" thread mentioned above.  That section is reply #224 -  http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,171960.msg2368790.html#msg2368790


Good luck.  Hope this helps get you on track and settles up some of those pin gap inconsistencies.

[RadSav]

Here is a pin chart that shows what a progressing pin gap should be at different speeds.  I think you can buy them from Lancaster Archery.  Or you can buy the wonderful program "Archers Advantage" and print your own specific to your bow.  I've been using A-A now for nearly ten years.  It has changed the way I choose arrows, select my points and inserts and how I set my pins.  I haven't found fault with it yet.  Well worth the investment for seamheads like me.

[raydog]

Thanks a ton Rad! He got a new drop away put on today, and the guys at sportco leveled it out. Would that fix his tail low release or is it the D loop that would need moved? He hasn't shot it yet, but we hope that it helps a bit.

[RadSav]

Thanks a ton Rad! He got a new drop away put on today, and the guys at sportco leveled it out. Would that fix his tail low release or is it the D loop that would need moved? He hasn't shot it yet, but we hope that it helps a bit.

Fall Away or Biscuit doesn't really matter.  But getting it set right will.  Sportco guys are usually pretty good at that.  But there is almost always a little tweak here or there that needs to be done.

I find the biscuit the easiest to get right from the start, but many people for some reason don't like it.  Just the fact you are working on getting it right is probably the most important part.  If you continue to have issues I'd suggest making a run to see Denton in Enumscratch.  He's pretty good at the mechanical stuff!  He is also experienced in hybrid cams and timing if that might be an issue too.

You can always send me a PM as well if things continue to be troublesome.  Not sure how fast I can respond these days, but I'll help where I can.

[raydog]

Thanks a ton Rad! He got a new drop away put on today, and the guys at sportco leveled it out. Would that fix his tail low release or is it the D loop that would need moved? He hasn't shot it yet, but we hope that it helps a bit.

Fall Away or Biscuit doesn't really matter.  But getting it set right will.  Sportco guys are usually pretty good at that.  But there is almost always a little tweak here or there that needs to be done.

I find the biscuit the easiest to get right from the start, but many people for some reason don't like it.  Just the fact you are working on getting it right is probably the most important part.  If you continue to have issues I'd suggest making a run to see Denton in Enumscratch.  He's pretty good at the mechanical stuff!  He is also experienced in hybrid cams and timing if that might be an issue too.

You can always send me a PM as well if things continue to be troublesome.  Not sure how fast I can respond these days, but I'll help where I can.

Will do! Thanks again Rad

[LeviD1]

I know when I switched my wife's whisker biscuit out her arrows raised about 3-4 inches with no other adjustments so I know that thing was slowing down her arrows. Just my my 

[theleo]

I know when I switched my wife's whisker biscuit out her arrows raised about 3-4 inches with no other adjustments so I know that thing was slowing down her arrows. Just my my 

By their very nature they take speed out but how much depends on your fletching, length, offset, and helical all play a factor going through the biscuit.

[RadSav]

Chronographs show the initial velocity change between drop away and biscuit to be insignificant with Blazer vanes.  But POI is different with just about every arrow rest out there.  I wouldn't make too much of POI change from one arrow rest to another.  Will drive you crazy trying to figure out what, why and how.

One of the biggest benefits of the biscuit it how it transfers stored energy within the arrow more rapidly than from an arrow through a fall-away.  One of the reasons it is so darn easy to tune.