How to train WEYCO to raise their fees?

[Goshawk]

How to train WEYCO to raise their fees?

Easy.

You sell out $240,000.00 of Vail Permits in under 5 minutes.

Nice going everyone who participated.  Fees will go higher until the market can no longer afford the fees, and thus hunting gets another nail in it's coffin.  This is doing more damage to outdoor sports than Greenpeace could dream of.

Just my  worth,
Goshawk

[kentrek]

.  This is doing more damage to outdoor sports than Greenpeace could dream of.

 

Spot on...i can't even count how many young people I know stopped the sport due to this...we are pricing our selves out of a Heritage

[MountainWalk]

 

[PolarBear]

 

[Skyvalhunter]

Your concern is appreciated!!

[Magnum_Willys]

You sell out $240,000.00 of Vail Permits in under 5 minutes.

They count their pennies so some bean counter has to be drooling......
A) raise prices tick off people
B) add another 500 permits.....

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

Really condem those who buy the permits...     that's worse than green peace.  That turns sportsmen and women against each other, cost us our hunting land and gets the big timber richer.  Those that buy the permits are mostly only doing so to hunt.  Not to profit or lock you out.  That's already being done by the timber companies.  They will keep increasing prices and getting tax breaks for letting the PUBLIC access their land. Which they hardly do. The public pays for the roads that make the tree farms drivable through taxes.  With the agreement that the public will have access to the land.  So yes we got the long end but don't blame one another.

[pianoman9701]

I agree with DIY.  The target of your ire should be big timber, not each other. 

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

Long time no talk p man.  How ya been? Getting ready for elk again I hope?

We are a group of one. SPORTSMEN AND WOMEN.  Let's unite and come up with ways to change big timbers policies.  Gain access to more land and make any permit areas manageable for us. (More permits less fees).  I think wdfw and weryhauser are both good starting points.

What's funny to me is wdfw enforcment spending all year checking permits at the gates for weryhauser. more tax dollars wasted and lots of illegal hunting going on away from the gates.  Good excuse to sit and listen to the Hawks all afternoon rather than actively perusing poachers.

[Skyvalhunter]

So he has a nice Dodge 3500?

[brew]

Adapt or die

[pianoman9701]

Whine whine whine.  If you don't want to pay to hunt private land then don't.  Just dont get too high and mighty about "our" hunting heritage.  Mine is doing just fine thanks.

Maybe re-purpose some money from that jacked up Dodge 3500 driving around Tacoma into a access pass, or don't its up to you.  Just don't complain too loudly about pricing hunting out of the means of the people.

Well, as long as you're doing just fine, I guess that's all that matters. 

[JimmyHoffa]

I would say somewhat to be relieved they haven't gone into full lease mode yet.  At least with the permits you can all keep pounding the same ground and it isn't a bidding war yet.  Once the timber companies figure out they'll make even more money by switching to a lease managed by an outfitter, the permits likely won't be available anymore.  And then even the permit guys are out of luck.

[Skyvalhunter]

Weyco already has some of there property up to bid on for lease. It could possibly all be going to that.

[JimmyHoffa]

  Nowhere in WA is the hunting that good to support that kind of investment without a lot of users.

I don't know but a couple areas in WA where animals are managed to get close to having densities or size to make for the universal term of 'that good'.  I know there are a few tree farms that raffle off access permits for elk season, one of which is ten permits a year.  The bulls survive over the years and have grown to be some pretty big critters.  And guys pay outfitters $5K or more per person to hunt the USFS land next door for low odds on even getting a 3 pt.  For the case of vail and deer, I don't know of any attempts to shape buck to doe ratios or antler selection culling.

[bobcat]

I've said this before, but the thing is, in the case of the Vail tree farm, before the access permit system began, there was almost no access allowed year around. The only exception was three or four weekends that they would open the gates for modern firearm deer season. That was it!

Oh, and yes, you could walk in, but with the huge amount of area that tree farm takes up, and with no camping allowed, the majority of it was not accessible. So access is actually much improved from what it used to be, and if the price remains at $300, I think it's a good deal for those who can make use of the year around, drive in access.

Not that I see this whole access by permit only being a good thing for hunting overall. It's definitely not. I'm just saying in this case, the Vail tree farm is providing much more opportunity for hunting than it did in the past, even if it is limited to only 800 permit holders.

[pianoman9701]

Whine whine whine.  If you don't want to pay to hunt private land then don't.  Just dont get too high and mighty about "our" hunting heritage.  Mine is doing just fine thanks.

Maybe re-purpose some money from that jacked up Dodge 3500 driving around Tacoma into a access pass, or don't its up to you.  Just don't complain too loudly about pricing hunting out of the means of the people.

Well, as long as you're doing just fine, I guess that's all that matters. 

I don't see any of the 500 or was it 1000 permit holders complaining about their loss of access, their loss of heritage, or their loss of hunting rights. 

It just seems like it's always the same guys complaining about the impending implosion of hunting in Washington because Weyerhauser has the audacity to charge you to use their land.  Where exactly would you hunt if you didn't have someone else's private property to hunt on?

Decreased access to affordable hunting for everyone should be a concern to all hunters whether it directly affects them or not. I hunt public land so it doesn't affect me directly. But I see this as being a burden on lower income folks, especially. They should either allow access or pay the full tax rate on their land, just like other private landowners. I pay the full rate and don't allow hunters access to my property. Of course, I live in the city, so...

[PolarBear]

I've said this before, but the thing is, in the case of the Vail tree farm, before the access permit system began, there was almost no access allowed year around. The only exception was three or four weekends that they would open the gates for modern firearm deer season. That was it!

Oh, and yes, you could walk in, but with the huge amount of area that tree farm takes up, and with no camping allowed, the majority of it was not accessible. So access is actually much improved from what it used to be, and if the price remains at $300, I think it's a good deal for those who can make use of the year around, drive in access.

Not that I see this whole access by permit only being a good thing for hunting overall. It's definitely not. I'm just saying in this case, the Vail tree farm is providing much more opportunity for hunting than it did in the past, even if it is limited to only 800 permit holders.

I had the permit last year and got another this year.  Best $300 I have spent on hunting.  I live 5 minutes away from the main gate and to now have year round access for me and my family is awesome.  The down side is there are a lot of local folks who didn't get a permit who have spent their whole lives/generations hunting in Vail.

[JimmyHoffa]

I've said this before, but the thing is, in the case of the Vail tree farm, before the access permit system began, there was almost no access allowed year around. The only exception was three or four weekends that they would open the gates for modern firearm deer season. That was it!

Oh, and yes, you could walk in, but with the huge amount of area that tree farm takes up, and with no camping allowed, the majority of it was not accessible. So access is actually much improved from what it used to be, and if the price remains at $300, I think it's a good deal for those who can make use of the year around, drive in access.

Not that I see this whole access by permit only being a good thing for hunting overall. It's definitely not. I'm just saying in this case, the Vail tree farm is providing much more opportunity for hunting than it did in the past, even if it is limited to only 800 permit holders.

I had the permit last year and got another this year.  Best $300 I have spent on hunting.  I live 5 minutes away from the main gate and to now have year round access for me and my family is awesome.  The down side is there are a lot of local folks who didn't get a permit who have spent their whole lives/generations hunting in Vail.

Have you noticed any changes in the animals since a few years back when it was a big free for all?

[PolarBear]

I've said this before, but the thing is, in the case of the Vail tree farm, before the access permit system began, there was almost no access allowed year around. The only exception was three or four weekends that they would open the gates for modern firearm deer season. That was it!

Oh, and yes, you could walk in, but with the huge amount of area that tree farm takes up, and with no camping allowed, the majority of it was not accessible. So access is actually much improved from what it used to be, and if the price remains at $300, I think it's a good deal for those who can make use of the year around, drive in access.

Not that I see this whole access by permit only being a good thing for hunting overall. It's definitely not. I'm just saying in this case, the Vail tree farm is providing much more opportunity for hunting than it did in the past, even if it is limited to only 800 permit holders.

I had the permit last year and got another this year.  Best $300 I have spent on hunting.  I live 5 minutes away from the main gate and to now have year round access for me and my family is awesome.  The down side is there are a lot of local folks who didn't get a permit who have spent their whole lives/generations hunting in Vail.

Have you noticed any changes in the animals since a few years back when it was a big free for all?

Yep.  My daughter and I both had multi season deer tags last year so we spent a lot of time looking for the right buck.  The difference between now and when it was a weekend only free for all is night and day.  I had the entire month of December off from work and pent 80% of the month up there.  I would go for 3 or 4 days at a time without seeing another hunter.  Most of the folks that you do come across are just up road hunting and killing spikes at the old usual haunts.  With a little exploration you can find bigger and relatively unmolested bucks.

[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

Whine whine whine.  If you don't want to pay to hunt private land then don't.  Just dont get too high and mighty about "our" hunting heritage.  Mine is doing just fine thanks.

Maybe re-purpose some money from that jacked up Dodge 3500 driving around Tacoma into a access pass, or don't its up to you.  Just don't complain too loudly about pricing hunting out of the means of the people.

Well, as long as you're doing just fine, I guess that's all that matters. 

I don't see any of the 500 or was it 1000 permit holders complaining about their loss of access, their loss of heritage, or their loss of hunting rights. 

It just seems like it's always the same guys complaining about the impending implosion of hunting in Washington because Weyerhauser has the audacity to charge you to use their land.  Where exactly would you hunt if you didn't have someone else's private property to hunt on?

I bought a permit and im complaining.  Just not in the meaningless manner.  My grandfather didn't get to join us ever at vail since the permit.  Now that my boy can hunt he couldn't be there to hunt w him and be part of his first deer.  so yes it has taken away from the heritage and traditions that my family has of hunting together and teaching the sport to the youth.  Pass it on right.  Oh no weyhauser needs 250 k per permit.  I forgot dire straights for them. 

If weyhauser thought about it they are probably hurting the local communities more than the sportsmen.  By taking away the bulk of the small towns revenue for the entire year they will likely effect the local economy negatively and since I live in the community...  That's hurting us more than some wasted tax dollars from weyhauser welching on its deal to let the public access the land.  But since they sell all the timber to china and buy it back for a huge increase they don't care about the local communities.  not after trumps elected.  They'll pay 35% on all the imports , probably exports too.  Trump 2016 make America great again!

[Fl0und3rz]

High fence or high access fees.  What's the difference?

[blackveltbowhunter]

  To me I see the money as less of the division as the quota. Its been stated and I agree in part , that it is a reasonable price to pay for motorized access year round. Add up a family and the return is even better. But because its a quota deal, your option choices are on a 90 second timeline. Not realistic IMO. If the quota wasn't there, you have options. Buy the permit or don't. By capping the number of permits they have created demand. I hunted vail for several years pre permit on foot or bicycle and don't remember a time not seeing multiple good bucks ( 3 point + ) throughout the seasons, so im not sold that the quality is so much better although as has been mentioned motorized access certainly is. I would like to go up and scout some of the old haunts to compare, and almost pulled the trigger last night. But unknown if I would be able to use it to its full potential this year.

  Its strange to me tho the folks ( not necessarily on this forum ), that seem to love the permits and drone on about how they had great hunts, less pressure, saw tons of game etc.... But are the first to cry and moan about restricted motorized access to public land. Its laughable. The effect is the same, limiting hunter competition. They are willing to restrict other hunters with their pocketbook, but when an area is less accessible to them due to physical limitation the guns come out. I guess I don't understand the thought process.

[hoof rot]

f@#k weyco, they ruined lots of hunting area for the public and poison our wildlife and the state does nothing, i'm sellin out this winter in grays harbor county and investing in okanogan county

[JimmyHoffa]

Of course like everything else here, its just too many people trying to do the something at the same time.

Isn't that ever the truth.  Same supply, more demand.  Why prices will go up until the public land crowds/harvests/predators/price points converge to make WDFW go permit only for hunting.

[Blcktaildreamer]

"I bought a permit and im complaining.  Just not in the meaningless manner.  My grandfather didn't get to join us ever at vail since the permit.  Now that my boy can hunt he couldn't be there to hunt w him and be part of his first deer.  so yes it has taken away from the heritage and traditions that my family has of hunting together and teaching the sport to the youth.  Pass it on right.  Oh no weyhauser needs 250 k per permit.  I forgot dire straights for them. 

If weyhauser thought about it they are probably hurting the local communities more than the sportsmen.  By taking away the bulk of the small towns revenue for the entire year they will likely effect the local economy negatively and since I live in the community...  That's hurting us more than some wasted tax dollars from weyhauser welching on its deal to let the public access the land.  But since they sell all the timber to china and buy it back for a huge increase they don't care about the local communities.  not after trumps elected.  They'll pay 35% on all the imports , probably exports too.  Trump 2016 make America great again!

"[/i][/size][/size]

Simple answer, why not take grand dad, grandson, and yourself to a place you all can hunt?  Why buy a permit on land that your family can't access if hunting with your family is that important to you?   

Which small towns lost all of their revenue from people not hunting Weyerhauser property?  How did they lose the money? 
[/quote]


My thoughts exactly. I had a similar thing my kid brother and dad didn't have a permit, but I wanted to be a part of his first hunt. Easy fix I hunted with them on public land.


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[hoof rot]

the small town of brooklyn has def been affected by weyco permits the tavern is probably gonna close 

[chester]

the small town of brooklyn has def been affected by weyco permits the tavern is probably gonna close 

I wouldn't say it's all on Weyco . It took a turn after Ray passed.


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[Blcktaildreamer]

the small town of brooklyn has def been affected by weyco permits the tavern is probably gonna close 

I wouldn't say it's all on Weyco . It took a turn after Ray passed.


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I was just going to say this it was headed down as soon as ray passed. I don't like hangin around all the dead beats smokin weed in there now.


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[DIYARCHERYJUNKIE]

"I bought a permit and im complaining.  Just not in the meaningless manner.  My grandfather didn't get to join us ever at vail since the permit.  Now that my boy can hunt he couldn't be there to hunt w him and be part of his first deer.  so yes it has taken away from the heritage and traditions that my family has of hunting together and teaching the sport to the youth.  Pass it on right.  Oh no weyhauser needs 250 k per permit.  I forgot dire straights for them. 

If weyhauser thought about it they are probably hurting the local communities more than the sportsmen.  By taking away the bulk of the small towns revenue for the entire year they will likely effect the local economy negatively and since I live in the community...  That's hurting us more than some wasted tax dollars from weyhauser welching on its deal to let the public access the land.  But since they sell all the timber to china and buy it back for a huge increase they don't care about the local communities.  not after trumps elected.  They'll pay 35% on all the imports , probably exports too.  Trump 2016 make America great again!

"[/i][/size][/size]

Simple answer, why not take grand dad, grandson, and yourself to a place you all can hunt?  Why buy a permit on land that your family can't access if hunting with your family is that important to you?   

Which small towns lost all of their revenue from people not hunting Weyerhauser property?  How did they lose the money? 
[/quote]


Most all small towns took a hit with these permits.  Town was packed with hunters spending money before the permit.  Now towns get none of the revenue that the hunting season provided.  Most of these towns depended on the hunting every year cause business picked up during those months.  Sporting good stores will take a hit too.  Hotels and motels, gas stations, food stores and lets not forget all the ones who don't buy the tags anymore. 

Simple answer is there is very little public land left that hold deer locally.  Its all gated off and pay to play.  My grandfather and his sons taught me to hunt that land and I have taught my son and just see the whole money grab as a spit in the face of the folks who been paying for those roads for decades now.  I was just explaining how the loss of my hunting tradition stems from exactly the permit.  Call it what you want its greedy and a stab in the back to the people, communities and rural towns these tree farms are located.

[hoof rot]

its not because ray passed its because fall river and minot dont get nearly as many hunters these days due to the permits, been hunting there my whole life and saw the changes first hand, just my opinion.

[Boss .300 winmag]

I think weyco should charge $2k for each species hunted! 

[Bullkllr]

I never really considered the effect of the quota on people.  Of course like everything else here, its just too many people trying to do the something at the same time.   

You will when you can't get a permit that you want.

That's the end game for all of us, sooner or later, unfortunately.

[Goshawk]

I've said this before, but the thing is, in the case of the Vail tree farm, before the access permit system began, there was almost no access allowed year around. The only exception was three or four weekends that they would open the gates for modern firearm deer season. That was it!

Oh, and yes, you could walk in, but with the huge amount of area that tree farm takes up, and with no camping allowed, the majority of it was not accessible. So access is actually much improved from what it used to be, and if the price remains at $300, I think it's a good deal for those who can make use of the year around, drive in access.

Not that I see this whole access by permit only being a good thing for hunting overall. It's definitely not. I'm just saying in this case, the Vail tree farm is providing much more opportunity for hunting than it did in the past, even if it is limited to only 800 permit holders.

It was wide open when I was living in Roy in the 60's and 70's.  We could drive over the nisqually river by passing up Tule Lake, off of the end of Harts Lake Loop Road, or Pole Line Rd., heading south over tanawax creek, then over that huge log bridge that crossed the Nisqually River. Turn East and travel along the river.  Several roads all heading into Vale were there and open.  Of course you had to watch out for off road log trucks; Dang they were huge!  Keep pushing south east and you came to the duck and goose lakes. A little further west and newaukum river all the way down to pigeon springs, or bear canyon, Indian hole on 508, the south side of Alder lake, or the party hole where the Mashell River and Nisqually River met.  That's the ground I remember grouse, deer and yes even elk hunting on.

It like all that ground East of Eatonville and Mashell River was open for fishing, hunting, berry and mushroom picking.  It was all advertised as part of the "Private lands do the Public Good" timber tax campaign.  I never saw a closed gate unless it was an active logging area, and even then you just went to the next open gate and went around.

Do times change? Of course they do.
Can we all do a better job of helping to keep affordable public access for future generations? Heck Yes.

[DaveMonti]

I really don't see Washington being enough of a destination state for non-residents to support a significant outfitting industry.  Yes, there are some out of staters hunting in WA, but there is a reason there are very few outfitters here in this state relative to most other states with trophy populations of big game.  I'm not sure if its the cost of the licenses and tage, the lack of places that have high probability of trophy animals (relative to leased and managed lands in other states), or if the state just makes it hard on outfitters to establish a business, but WA is definitely NOT a destination state for hunters.  I'm also not sure if there are enough resident hunters that would pay a premium for an outfitter with a lease on timber company land.  I think most would rather pay to hunt Montana or a number of other states. 

Now, if the state can make money off of it, all bets are off.  Anything can happen.

[kentrek]

I think weyco should charge $2k for each species hunted! 

  I hope the prices get to the point Il never see another hunter....because that's better for me ! Maybe il be able to get a big bull some day ! 

The one thing history proves is man does its best to make things easier...hunting is no different...but when killing a big bull becomes easy...what value is left ??

Just late night rambling...

[fireweed]

The fee program is clearly a new recreation business, just like any other recreation business and it needs to start following the same rules as the little guy would.

Try this experiment.  Go to your county building and planning department with a proposal to start a recreation business on your 20 or 40 acres of timber.  Propose to do the EXACT thing Weyco is doing--rent out keys to existing forestry gates and provide access to land, rivers, and logging roads for day and overnight use...and see if your county says "you're good--You don't need to change a thing." 

Do you really thing the little guy would get away without adding handicapped accessible gates, fire hydrants, restrooms, garbage cans, signage, sales taxes, sanitation surveys, hand washing facilities.....

[bowbuild]

The thing I see here in politics as far as the presidential race is the statement "If you don't vote for Trump YOU are supporting Hillary." Those same people (even on this thread) Can't seem to see buying the permits is supporting timber companies, you will most likely continue, your choice......But don't make it sound like we are in this together...we are NOT. Your purchase of their permits is YOUR vote for the slow, but eventual end of hunting as a whole. Less access = less hunters, which in the end, traditions won't be instilled in our young. Hunters are already a minority group, shrinking that group is not in anyone's interest. I think a lot of you are very SHORT SIGHTED.

Look at England....the rich for the most part were the group that could afford these hunts, but no matter how rich you are, a simple majority of poor non-hunters through the voting process can eliminate almost anything.

[JimmyHoffa]

But hunting culture, spending, harvest, lowest cost licenses and longest seasons tend to be in the states that have controlled access.  Some of those states deer season is four-five months long with a two deer daily bag limit for a license of something like $40.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want Washington to change unless it is going back to say the 80's or earlier; I just don't think the pay-for-play will be the end argument has too much evidence.

[pianoman9701]

I think a lot of people think that the so called "pay to play" is beginning of the end.  Consider this, up until a hunter makes a monetary investment to hunt, ie a permit or something similar, he has no real investment in the eyes of his political reps and other agencies beyond he cost of a license.  There is no "harm" in restricting hunting when no one can claim a legitimate loss as a result. 

Put this into perspective, who do believe would be better heard at the state house or WDFW?  Joe citizen with his feathers ruffled over being asked to pay a fee to hunt private ground or  Bob Citizen complaining that he has invested several hundred dollars a year into the states resources and feels someone owes him at least the courtesy of listening to his grievance.   

If i were the one hearing the grievance the guy who can show me he has invested in something will at least get my courtesy and time.

These are not mutually exclusive. We get it: you don't mind the fees. But, everyone's invested in hunting. We've invested in gearing and gunning up. We've invested years into scouting and locating critters. We've invested weeks of our vacation time. We've invested $100s of dollars in license fees. I repeat, for those unable to come up with 1 or more $300 fees to justify the past investment they've put in, they're just SOL. And you continue to gloss over the issue of their tax rate. Joe Citizen with his feathers ruffled isn't just torqued about the loss of access and the traditions his family have enjoyed for decades. He's torqued because he pays a full real estate tax rate and these mega-billion dollar companies pay a mere fraction of the same rate.

I'm sure you're a great guy and good hunter, Macs, but you seem to have zero empathy for people who will be stuck by this without any options, or very few, at least.

[pianoman9701]

Too much coffee already. Thanks for the discussion.

[Encore 280]

I'm not in it for the trophy bull or any bull. All I would like to do is put meat on the table. If a legal bull were to step out in front of me then that's a bonus but I'm not a trophy hunter. I don't understand how a parent or grand parent is supposed to be able to afford to take their kids or grand kids hunting anymore with such outrageous fees! If it affected the guys up in the office then you can bet your sweet azz that they'd be pitch'n a bitch big time! The whole thing is total BS!! I didn't have too much coffee either, I had my bitch flakes for breakfast. Have a nice day.

[Curly]

I agree with Fireweed, bowbuild, Pianoman, Encore280 and the others that understand that we are witnessing the end of hunting as we know it. 

And I don't drink coffee........ 


Weyco sucks........ 


I also can see that the legislature will likely do nothing about it.  The people that care about this issue are a very small minority, so in that respect I understand what Macs is talking about.  I still don't like his attitude about the issue, but I understand it too.  He probably got used to the lease type arrangements while living in Europe, but it is frustrating for those of us that have grown up being able to go hunting with friends and family on timber lands for our whole lives. 

(I'm still bitter over timber companies being allowed to hire hound hunters after the hound hunting ban that excluded average hunters from baiting and hunting with hounds.)  It was a bogus initiative that the courts should have shot-down due to more than one issue being voted on in the proposal.  And an initiative that should not even see the ballot box because it is a wildlife management issue.  (Sorry, I guess I was rambling and getting off topic a little). 

We just keep witnessing the loss of the way of life and I guess have just live with it.............but at least we can still complain about it with like minded folks on Hunt-Wa.   

[bowbuild]

But hunting culture, spending, harvest, lowest cost licenses and longest seasons tend to be in the states that have controlled access.  Some of those states deer season is four-five months long with a two deer daily bag limit for a license of something like $40.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want Washington to change unless it is going back to say the 80's or earlier; I just don't think the pay-for-play will be the end argument has too much evidence.

Really? I for one ONLY buy my archery deer tag (I use to buy it all) Why would you buy a elk tag BEFORE you know if you were to (get lucky...I guess)  and get your timber company permit? This must be a loss to the state, if others follow suite?

I have not looked at how the timber company permits are set up this yr., but let me tell you....as a archer if I buy certain timber permits, you loose half the ground I paid to hunt because timber company permits don't line up with state regs. This is not a problem for rifle hunters, as far as I know.

Last, there is no wildlife management to a first come first serve permit system. If wildlife management is no concern to you so be it.