Maybe I had a mil dot ephiphany

[h20hunter]

So, I have a thread about my AR build but this is different. I'm learning and trying to make the best decision on a scope. Not so much brand but reticle. So, my epiphany. I have no military background so my shooting and scope world revolves around 1/4 inch clicks and holdover. I've not had a shot on game longer than 143 yards. But...if I want to practice and become better then I need to learn. I'm looking at this Leupold.....

https://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/mark-4-lrt-riflescopes/mark-4-lrt-4-5-14x50mm-30mm-m1/

with this reticle

https://www.leupold.com/reticles/tactical-milling-reticle/

On the way home I think I got it.

So, one mil = 36 inches at 1000 yards.....or is it meters.

Since the closer you get to the target brings your measurement down .1 mil equals 3.6 inches at 100 yards. If I'm used to moa and went with this scope I would need to change my way of thinking. The hashmarks on the reticle I believe are in 1/2 mil increments. So then I get my load data (probably a standard .308 165 gr load) and make a dope card for my rifle. X number of inches drop calculates to X mils. So if my bambi is standing at 425 yards and I'm zeroed at 200 I check my card for how many mils do I hold for the 225 yard difference. Say its 1.5 mils up....bring it up, steady, boom.

Do I got it or what am I missing. Thinking about it for 2 days straight has made my brain hurt.

[crabcreekhunter]

Pretty much have it... but .1 mils is .36" at 100.  I like mils better than moa, all works the same just a unit of measure!

[h20hunter]

Ok, got it, kinda. 

[jay.sharkbait]

Most of the decent ballistics programs will allow you to range and zero in yards and it will give you drops in mils. You can enter a 200 yard zero and print your card from that.

I would shoot the rifle at your hunting distances and verify dope. After you have done that, true your ballistics program and you are GTG.

[h20hunter]

I assume there are some decent ones online. Ill be able to shoot out to 500 locally once done to verify and practice.  Also, ill take any feedback on scope mentioned. Im looking at a budget ok 1k to 1500 and am being recommended that one.

[Timberstalker]

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/20/mil-vs-moa-an-objective-comparison/

H2O- read this link. It's pretty informative.

[jay.sharkbait]

The Mk 4's have been a solid optic for years. I would research turrets for which one that would be best for you.

If you choose to splurge, look at the Mk 6 3-18.

[BULLBLASTER]

I think the m1 turrets are in moa? If that's the case I would look at the ts32 reticle. It's a moa based reticle. Maybe easier since you already think in Moa. Or the tmoa reticle too

[Yondering]

Do I got it or what am I missing. Thinking about it for 2 days straight has made my brain hurt.

You pretty much have it, but are making it harder than it needs to be.

A mil is 1/1,000th, doesn't matter what units you're using, inches, yards, meters, etc. One mil is equal to 1 meter at 1,000 meters, or 1 yard at 1,000 yards. If you convert that 1 yard to inches, that's 36 inches in a yard.

For dope and normal shooting with a mil reticle, you don't need to think in inches and try to convert back and forth in your head, just think in mils. Set up your ballistics program and dope card in mils, use the mil reticle to measure how many mils away from the target you hit, etc.

The only time you really need to think about inches is when estimating distance based on target size (or vise versa). I suggest a "mil dot master" or smartphone app for that, but the formula is:
Target height (inches) x 27.77 / Target height (mils) = Range (yards)

Hope that helps.

Oh, and make sure you choose a scope with mil reticle and mil turrets (or moa/moa), don't mix mil and moa together in the same scope.

[lamrith]

My recommendation to you regardless of if you go MOA or MIL is to make sure you buy a scope that is matching.  So MOA adjustments, MOA reticle, or MIL adjustment/Mil Reticle.  That will take some of the math out of factory your drop and not having to convert back and forth.

The Mil/mil oriented scopes I have seen are usually .1mil per turret click, the ret has marks can vary, I think the one I have is 1mil per hash.

If you have a smart phone, check out an app called Strelok.  They have 1 free and 2 paid versions.  It will let you enter all your gun and load data and will calculate your drop and mil's instantly for you for a given yardage.  Lots of other featuers too like simulated Ret view, full drop table you can email, MPBR calculations etc..   I will try and post some screenshots in a few minutes from my phone.

[lamrith]

Here are some screenshots from my Grendel data.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

[h20hunter]

Ttt

[devldogs55]

I had a really hard time wrapping my head around reticles for a long time, and especially MRAD. Here's what I learned that made my long range shooting so much easier.

I always thought first focal plane scopes were only useful for ranging on unknown distance targets. What had never really clicked for me was that reticles are rulers. You always hear people talking about how many mils equals how many inches at what distance.. same for MOA. The most important thing I learned is that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter!

Assuming you have a first focal plane scope, and a mil/mil setup, who cares how many inches a mil equals at any distance? Use your reticle the way it was designed. If your point of aim is on a bullseye, and your point of impact is low, you simply hold the center of your reticle on your point of aim again, and count the number of mils/moa/hippies/bowie knives your POI was off from your POA using the ruler which is your reticle. This is where it's important to have a mil/mil or moa/moa setup. If you count .4mil low, move up .4 mil on your turret. At no time do you ever need to convert to inches or centimeters, and it will never matter what the range to target is (if you have a FFP setup). You should never be looking at your target and saying "I was .2 mils low which equals x number of inches. I need to move up x number of inches, which I now need to convert back to .2 mils".

Same goes for moa/moa FFP scopes. If your reticle shows you that you are 2 hashmarks low, and two hashmarks equals .5moa, you now know that you need to adjust your elevation turret up .5 moa.

A successful long range shooter will use the word inches zero times while finding a firing solution. Doesn't matter if it's in your head or on a dope card.

This is why reticle choice is extremely important. Get something you can easily use as a ruler, and that is easy to read.

[Yondering]

Assuming you have a first focal plane scope, and a mil/mil setup, who cares how many inches a mil equals at any distance?

Yes, this. (Although it doesn't have to be a first focal plane scope, second focal plane works fine too.) Drop & wind holds should all be in mil (or moa), not inches.

The one time when you do need to use inches is when ranging targets; you need to know the target size to calculate the distance. That's a simple formula though.

[BULLBLASTER]

I had a really hard time wrapping my head around reticles for a long time, and especially MRAD. Here's what I learned that made my long range shooting so much easier.

I always thought first focal plane scopes were only useful for ranging on unknown distance targets. What had never really clicked for me was that reticles are rulers. You always hear people talking about how many mils equals how many inches at what distance.. same for MOA. The most important thing I learned is that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter!

Assuming you have a first focal plane scope, and a mil/mil setup, who cares how many inches a mil equals at any distance? Use your reticle the way it was designed. If your point of aim is on a bullseye, and your point of impact is low, you simply hold the center of your reticle on your point of aim again, and count the number of mils/moa/hippies/bowie knives your POI was off from your POA using the ruler which is your reticle. This is where it's important to have a mil/mil or moa/moa setup. If you count .4mil low, move up .4 mil on your turret. At no time do you ever need to convert to inches or centimeters, and it will never matter what the range to target is (if you have a FFP setup). You should never be looking at your target and saying "I was .2 mils low which equals x number of inches. I need to move up x number of inches, which I now need to convert back to .2 mils".

Same goes for moa/moa FFP scopes. If your reticle shows you that you are 2 hashmarks low, and two hashmarks equals .5moa, you now know that you need to adjust your elevation turret up .5 moa.

A successful long range shooter will use the word inches zero times while finding a firing solution. Doesn't matter if it's in your head or on a dope card.

This is why reticle choice is extremely important. Get something you can easily use as a ruler, and that is easy to read.

Perfect explanation there.

[devldogs55]

Assuming you have a first focal plane scope, and a mil/mil setup, who cares how many inches a mil equals at any distance?

Yes, this. (Although it doesn't have to be a first focal plane scope, second focal plane works fine too.) Drop & wind holds should all be in mil (or moa), not inches.

The one time when you do need to use inches is when ranging targets; you need to know the target size to calculate the distance. That's a simple formula though.

Well, that's true with a caveat.. Second focal plane scopes have the capability I described - but only at ONE magnification setting. First focal plane scopes are consistent throughout their magnification range. On a FFP scope, you can use your reticle to measure on any mag setting.. second focal plane - read the manual and it will tell you which setting to place the scope on for using the reticle. Sometimes it's the scope's highest magnification setting.. sometimes it's a different one.

On your second point: Yep.. agreed. I didn't touch on that because I don't use my reticle for ranging.. but you are right.