High round count

[Windwalker]

High round count

If any are interested what extreme round count does to different types of firearms I have included some links below.

There are AK, FN, pistols, AR15, Barrett 50 & Optics threads.

I found it very informative – the brands of ammo they use or shy away from, lubes & part failures make the read very worth while.

Keep in mind this is beyond any reasonable expectations of a firearms service life and should be kept in perspective.
If you are a staunch believer in brand X – It will lay to rest some beliefs, and reinforce others.

Here is one excerpt.

Battlefield Vegas http://www.battlefieldvegas.com/

“Here's a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can't bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance log on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. (last month we went through between 550,000-600,000 rounds)Tourists get to shoot everything from Type 99 Arisaka's, M1 Garand C and D's, MP-44's, G43's, M2HB's, 240's, 249's, MG42's, MG34's, M-14's, Luger's, Swedish K's, M203's, M79's and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day.”

Links to all six of these threads:

AR15s:  https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/677135_High_round_count_AR_M4_s__over_100_000_rounds__and_how_they_have_handled_on_our_range.html&page=1

AK: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_64/159106_.html

FN: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_24/447078_.html

Pistols:  http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/160140_.html

Barrett 50: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_3/447079_Barrett_M107A1_with_over_6_500_rounds_through_it.html

Optics 100,000+ round count durability: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1790052_High_round_count_optics__over_100_000_rounds__and_how_they_handled_at_our_range.html

And there is talk of a shotgun thread I have yet to locate.

Spoiler Alert-

I know I've promised to a shotgun thread but I will say this. We get a MAXIMUM of 5-6 weeks out of a Mossberg or Remington pump-action before it's down. Sometimes we will only get two weeks out of them before they are hard-broke. I can't say one is better than the other BUT... we've had a Benelli M4 on the line since DAY ONE and it has yet suffer from parts breaking. Granted, it only gets about 1/5 of the use but it's closing in on FOUR years and not one problem.

[Fl0und3rz]

Thanks for rounding those up.  Excellent info for spare parts storage.

[Windwalker]

Trying to compress the info off that site - leaving a lot out came up with this-

They put at least 100,000 rounds down range with M4's each month. Once fired brass goes to scrap and to reloaders, depending on how much they have sitting. At around 25,000 lbs and the reloaders don't pick it up, off to scrap it goes.

Here are some of the comments about the firearms in their inventory- as a side note there are some well-known brands they do not have. See below-

I want to clarify that we have NOT used a LWRC rifle here on our range.

We have not used BCM products in our range. It's never been because of an issue of quality but more of convenience. We order direct with Daniel Defense and LMT and since we opened the doors, I haven't had the time to ever open an account with or know if they even offer terms. Loyalty it's HUGE in my book and the guys at Daniel Defense have always managed to get us our product. Just like Magtech, when some ammo/weapons ban hype hits, everybody is somehow "sold out" of everything except Daniel Defense. The manufacturers do it and the distributors do it but that's way it works. Everybody has a method of how to do things but Daniel Defense has never called us to say, "sorry, all the M4's that you ordered last year are now more valuable and we can get X amount more for them so we are going to cancel". Also, when the hype is over they don't try and send a few pallets of M4's (mfr will remain nameless) and say... "oh, those are the units that your ordered 22 months ago" because they are sitting on warehouse of inventory even AFTER they broke their own contract.”

- The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system
Titan Defense upper- TD 416 (same as HK416)

Others-the pistons have snapped (or bent) and even some of the roller cam pins have snapped off.

The most reliable "alternative" is the FN SCAR. That weapon has yet to break or wear out a bolt, brake a hammer, or any other major part.
A SCAR-L that has been on the line since day one (01 OCT 13) just runs and runs and made me a believer.

Palmetto State M4 Premium upper with the FN barrel (Freedom line isn't the Premium)

- Put on the line 21 MAR 15
- Replaced bolt on 01 AUG 15, headspace good
- Replaced bolt on 30 AUG 15, headspace good
- Replaced bolt on 05 OCT 15, headspace good
- Barrel is starting to keyhole, pulled off the line 10 SEP 16
A year and a half of daily full- auto use is pretty impressive.

Colt M4 lasted exactly 364 days on the line- very conservative round count approximately 150,000 rounds

We don't know at what point the barrel separated from the upper receiver because the customer posed with the gun and then handed it back to the RSO in two pieces. The customer had just finished firing the weapon, handed it to the RSO, who then cleared it.
It's not likely that the average shooter will shoot the front end off a Colt M4 but for $800 and 150,000 rounds, I will take Colt M4's all day long and twice on Sunday.

Some of the repairs:
- Four hammer pins
- hammer spring
- ejector spring
- Two bolts
- gas rings
- gas tube

Lubes- How "wet" do you run them? Enough so that you can visually see it. They get lubricated in the morning before going on the line and again around noon. If they don't look "wet" the RSO can either make the armorer aware or get permission to lube it. We changed the policy a bit because some weapons were "floating" in lube.

Up until about three weeks ago, the main lube we were using was Slip 2000 and the grease was also made by Slip2000.
Slip2000 did the least amount of "misting" after lube but the Lucas Gun Oil does even better.
Using TW-25, cleaning the weapons is easier (1/2 or 2/3 of the time that it takes with the other cleaners) and they don't have to use as much lube to keep the weapons running reliably

- There is company that has an AR system that has some "parts don't need lubrication" and that failed before the end of the first day. I don't think some mfg's understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you're rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO's were laughing when it seized it up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range.

- The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier.

- Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5" full-auto's will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight

BCG’s- DD and LMT ((LMT, J&T, Green Mountain)
BCG info: Advised that Colt and DD make their own BCGs. While Palmetto BCG's are as reliable as others we use.
Colt BCG's have held up the best so far.
Colt bolts were WELL past the 60,000 round count before suffering a sheared lug. So far, we've replaced six lugs due to cracked legs but these Colts have been WELL used.

Toolcraft supplies FN, among many others.
Colt makes their own - but when they can't keep up, they buy from other producers, including FN and Toolcraft.
Question remains- if Toolcraft makes BCG's for Colt, are they the same quality as a Toolcraft made PSA BCG.

Gas Blocks-
All of the low profile gas blocks have held up equally but I prefer the MicroMOA units that have the gas restriction plug that allows us to slow down (and not over gas) the short barrel M4's. I would like to compare two 10" M4's by putting both on the line at the same time and use a standard gas block and a MicroMOA gas block and see if the bolt lasts longer. You can definitely feel the difference when using the MicroMOA unit (Baby Govnah) but if it can extend the life of the bolt from shearing in addition to providing a "softer" customer experience, it's a win-win situation.

- Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months

Charging handles will "stretch" allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out

- USGI mags (Brownell's with tan follower) have outlasted all of the other brands.
To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them.

Ammo-
Used Magtech .223 ammo until they got a military contract and couldn't keep up with production. Magtech has been the cleanest of all the ammo we used followed closely by Privi Partizan.
We are currently using Wolf Gold series of brass case ammo. We've gone through over 500,000 rounds with zero issues. It burns clean and pretty damn close to 5.56mm spec's even though it's listed as .223 Remington. They avoid Federal and prefer not to use American Eagle ammo.

In respect to longevity between issues, how would you compare them to AR's and AK's?

Keep in mind rifles were bought as semi autos and converted to full auto, requiring a M16 FCG (All the factory hammers, triggers and disconnectors are replaced with JT Distributing M16 parts)

AK has a slight edge over the M4. The M4 bolts won't last as long as the AK bolt but the receivers on M4's can go over 200,000 rounds as compared to the 100,000 rounds (on average) on a stamped AK receiver. Losing a bolt in your M4 in the 30,000-50,000 round count range being the deciding factor.

The melonite and nitrided barrels have been holding up just as well as the chrome-line barrels up to this point. Some of the melonite and nitrided barrels have tens of thousands of rounds through them with no issues.

[Bean Counter]

Very interesting, thank you.

I'm going through the 21 pages of "High round count pistols" and I'm trying to see if they even shoot revolvers at all. I'd really like to see what they have to say about a wheel gun vs. a bottom feeder. 

[Ddouble]

I've shot at Battlefield man they cycle some rounds. Crazy operation. They pick you up in a Humvee at your hotel a lot of fun for a Bachelor party.