Numbers Down?!?!?!

[remington300mag]

So, I just got done reading a post by another member that had this attachment to it, it says that the bear population in Washington State is on the decline! What the hell??? How many of you out there truly believe that the Black Bear population in Washington state is on the decline? Is that why they are giving out more spring permits??? I believe that since they closed down baiting and hound hunting, the bear population in this state has done nothing less than explode! I see more bear, bigger bear, and more bear sign in one day out in the woods now than I ever did as a kid!

Anyway, read this and let me know if I read it right!! As far as I can tell, WDFW is just trying to cover up another stupid decision on there part!!!

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/seasonsetting/2009-2011_recommendations/bear_&_cougr_general_seasons_232-28-272_287.pdf

[ThePascoKid]

I'm with you I don't believe for one second that bear numbers are on the decline.

[WDFW-SUX]

I can actually believe it..........more people are just shooting and don't care if they are killing sows. If we could bait it would not be an issue.

I don't think WDFW has any clue on the actuall bear numbers though

[Machias]

Harvest of sows is up, wounding rates are WAY up.  You eliminate the two best harvest methods as far as selection goes and yes it can have a impact on the numbers.  Look at all the photos last year of some ridiculously small bears being posted here.  If folks had time to size up their bears on a bait or up a tree alot less sows and cubs would be getting harvested.   

We told the WDFW that this would happen, it was one of the arugments used during the so called debate back in 1995/96.

[RubblesPH]

There was an initiative to get the bear baiting back....I think about six months ago I saw something about it.  Anyone know what ever became of that? 

[luvtohnt]

I wish there were more studies available that showed the harvest reports on post ban (hound and bait ban) hunting of bears and cats. Maybe if there was the ban would have never happened. Bears and cats climbed in population for about 5 or 6 years after the ban and now because of open hunting methods the numbers of both are starting to fall. This could be the beggining of something bad if some poeple (WDFW) don't pull thier heads out. It happens alot when people get wind that hunters are making the numbers fall, they imidiatly try to ban the hunting of said animal.

Brandon

[ThePascoKid]

I only hunt the blues so my view is a little skewd but I'll be damned if the bear numbers are down there, every year I see more and more but I can't speak to the rest of the state

[rasbo]

I dont believe they are down where I hunt,the girdling seems to be way up.

[PWN Kurt]

I'd like to see the harvest reports for 2008...I don't think they are up yet.

My understanding is that the bear complaints (getting into bird feeders, garbage, bbqs) were at an all time high last year.  They say that some of that was due to snow lingering in the high country last spring...but I'm sure its also a sign that numbers are good.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

My cousins in Poulsbo have them eating out of birdfeeders in their front yard, my hunting group saw 6 last elk season in the Manastash, the only place I think that they are in decline is in the areas open during spring hunts and the only places the Biologists are willing to walk.

[billythekidrock]

I wish there were more studies available that showed the harvest reports on post ban (hound and bait ban) hunting of bears and cats. Maybe if there was the ban would have never happened. Bears and cats climbed in population for about 5 or 6 years after the ban and now because of open hunting methods the numbers of both are starting to fall.

The numbers were on the rise before the ban. The population boom would have happened with or without the ban. When the breeding base gets so large the population grows exponentially.

For nearly ten years before the ban we were killing about 800 bears a year. For the first ten years since the ban we are killing 1500 bears a year. Mostly in due to cheap/free bear tags that are now in everyone's pocket.

Are they on the decline? I don't know and I doubt F&W knows for sure.

[Abolt338]

We also have to take into account that the bear population in WA is not one unique body.  Prior to the bans, pressure on the western populations was higher.  People could effectively hunt bears in the western timber using bait and hounds.  After the ban, regulation changes - cheaper tags, more liberal limits, longer seasons - switched the bear hunting pressure to the more open country East of the mountains. 

Statewide harvest rates eventually returned to their pre-ban levels, but a disproportionate number bears are being taken East of the Cascades as incidental harvests by deer / elk hunters who would otherwise not have purchased a bear tag.

As a result, populations West of the mountains (and those with heavy timber) are booming.  Populations in more open terrain are taking a bit of a hit, though I don't think it's a major decline.

Speaking with WA bear Biologists, there's no concrete way to measure bear populations.  Their estimates are guesses at best based on estimated sow mortality, hunter reports, estimated cub survival data, etc.

If you want to know whether or not bear populations are hurting on the West side (where nearly 2/3 of the state bear population resides), ask the timber companies.

Lacking the ability to bait and use hounds is not ideal for hunters or bear populations, but neither are hurting to the point where one would suggest a further reduction in hunting opportunity.

RW

[7mag.]

We also have to take into account that the bear population in WA is not one unique body.  Prior to the bans, pressures on the western populations was higher.  People could effectively hunt bears in the western timber using bait and hounds.  After the ban, regulation changes - cheaper tags, more liberal limits, longer seasons - switched the bear hunting pressure to the more open country East of the mountains. 

Statewide harvest rates eventually returned to their pre-ban levels, but a disproportionate number bears are being taken East of the Cascades as incidental harvests by deer / elk hunters who would otherwise not purchased a bear tag.

As a result, populations West of the mountains (and those with heavy timber) are booming.  Populations in more open terrain are taking a bit of a hit, though I don't think it's a major decline.

Speaking with WA bear Biologists, there's no concrete way to measure bear populations.  They're estimates are guesses at best based on estimated sow mortality, hunter reports, estimated cub survival data, etc.

If you want to know whether or not bear populations are hurting on the West side (where nearly 2/3 of the state bear population resides), ask the timber companies.

Lacking the ability to bait and use hounds is not ideal for hunters or bear populations, but neither are hurting to the point where one would suggest a further reduction in hunting opportunity.

RW

Good info. I have no information to back myself up, but through my own observations, bear numbers seem to be up over the last several years. I have seen more bears and sign than ever as a kid (pre ban).

[huntnphool]

Based on my own observations I don't see a decline

[billythekidrock]

Statewide harvest rates eventually returned to their pre-ban levels,

In over ten years it has not returned to preban levels. We are killing nearly 1/3 more now then when we could use dogs and bait.

[Machias]

I'd be interested to see what the age and sex of harvested bears has done, I bet it's quite a few more sows and young bears are taken now then in the past.  I wonder how many cubs are left on their own now.

[Abolt338]

Statewide harvest rates eventually returned to their pre-ban levels,

In over ten years it has not returned to preban levels. We are killing nearly 1/3 more now then when we could use dogs and bait.

I should have said "returned and then surpassed" pre-ban levels.  You're right, we actually harvest more bears now than before the ban; but a greater percent of those harvests occur in more open country as incidental kills as a direct result of liberal (meaning loose) policies set due to the ban and the likely decline in harvests that resulted from it.

RW

[billythekidrock]

Statewide harvest rates eventually returned to their pre-ban levels,

In over ten years it has not returned to preban levels. We are killing nearly 1/3 more now then when we could use dogs and bait.

I should have said "returned and then surpassed" pre-ban levels.  You're right, we actually harvest more bears now than before the ban; but a greater percent of those harvests occur in more open country as incidental kills as a direct result of liberal (meaning loose) policies set due to the ban and the likely decline in harvests that resulted from it.

RW

I thought you meant that, but wasn't sure.

I agree that there are too many incidentals as a result of the cheap tags and longer season.

[Abolt338]

Statewide harvest rates eventually returned to their pre-ban levels,

In over ten years it has not returned to preban levels. We are killing nearly 1/3 more now then when we could use dogs and bait.

I should have said "returned and then surpassed" pre-ban levels.  You're right, we actually harvest more bears now than before the ban; but a greater percent of those harvests occur in more open country as incidental kills as a direct result of liberal (meaning loose) policies set due to the ban and the likely decline in harvests that resulted from it.

RW

I thought you meant that, but wasn't sure.

I agree that there are too many incidentals as a result of the cheap tags and longer season.

And don't forget the few of us (you included) who choose to chase more than one ...

RW

[rasbo]

Statewide harvest rates eventually returned to their pre-ban levels,

In over ten years it has not returned to preban levels. We are killing nearly 1/3 more now then when we could use dogs and bait.

I should have said "returned and then surpassed" pre-ban levels.  You're right, we actually harvest more bears now than before the ban; but a greater percent of those harvests occur in more open country as incidental kills as a direct result of liberal (meaning loose) policies set due to the ban and the likely decline in harvests that resulted from it.

RW

I thought you meant that, but wasn't sure.

I agree that there are too many incidentals as a result of the cheap tags and longer season.

And don't forget the few of us (you included) who choose to chase more than one ...

RW

yeah you dirty rotten killers

[billythekidrock]

C'mon now...
I have only filled both tags 4 times and all of them on the Westside. Only one was an incidental. Actually I have only killed one ever as an incidental. All the others were targeted.

[hogsniper]

I dont believe it for a minute...I saw bears absolutly everywhere last year from 10 one day 6 another, in all elevations and times of year...I saw a total of 34 last year...33 of em in washington...But like said before I doubt the game department knows whats going on either...Too many of the damn things in my opinion, keep on killin em!!!

[rasbo]

I get one per year when I hunt the early hunt,now only the spring hunt and havent been drawn.season used to open july 15 in old hancock then a few days later they would close it down.There is no shortage of bears in there,its just that they dont all sit on the road and wait.the girdling in hancock is quite much.

[billythekidrock]

I'd be interested to see what the age and sex of harvested bears has done, I bet it's quite a few more sows and young bears are taken now then in the past.  I wonder how many cubs are left on their own now.

I also agree and wonder about that.

[lokidog]

I dont believe it for a minute...I saw bears absolutly everywhere last year from 10 one day 6 another, in all elevations and times of year...I saw a total of 34 last year...33 of em in washington...But like said before I doubt the game department knows whats going on either...Too many of the damn things in my opinion, keep on killin em!!!

Anytime you want help reducing their numbers, feel free to call!