Wyoming proposes a ban on sale of trophy game coordinates

[Bob33]

Searching for trophy game animals using advanced photography equipment or even drones and then selling the locations could soon be illegal.
   
This practice, Game and Fish Wardens say isn’t fair for hunters, or their prey.

The premise is simple: go find a trophy animal and then get paid by someone who wants to know the location.

WGFD Chief Warden Brian Nesvik shared, “Folks are spending quite a bit of time scouting for big trophy class animals in remote areas, and then taking the locations of those animals and selling services to people, helping them to find those animals during the hunting season.”

“I think it’s a question of ethics, there’s a balance there. It brings into question fair chase but you know the advancements of technology has put us at this point,” commented, Joshua Coursey Muley Fanatic Foundation President.

This is especially true for trophy mule deer bucks, because they generally stay around the same area until migrating.

“It’s not always easy to find animals in those areas, but once you do find them, especially with mule deer they maintain a lot of fidelity to that area until they leave again to migrate back down to winter ranges,” said Coursey.

This problem has been brought to light in the past few years. The consensus, it is not fair and even unethical.

“Actually really in the last couple of years we’ve started to see more of these services advertised, and that’s primarily where I think most of the folks we heard from here today at the committee have become aware of this issue.”

“The chase or the stalk is the hunt; it’s not called killing or shooting, it’s called hunting! And I think when you alleviate that you’ve taken the sport and the recreational pursuit of hunting and it’s turned into something not what this hunting community cherishes.”

State Representative District #33, Jim Allen felt, “We thought by our vote that it was an unfair advantage given to some hunters and not others, and so we’ll see what the bill does when it gets to the budget session in February but right now we passed the bill out of committee that prohibits that practice.”

GPS advertisements can range from a few hundred dollars to almost two-thousand, depending on the trophy status of an animal.

http://www.kcwy13.com/content/news/Selling-the-Coorinates--442271353.html

[pianoman9701]

Not that I'm in favor of the practice, but how is this different than paying for a guide who knows the area?

[greenhead_killer]

Beat me to it pman. That was my first thought as well

[elkinrutdrivemenuts]

I wonder if it is the guides who are pissed then? 

[huntnphool]

The premise is simple: go find a trophy animal and then get paid by someone who wants to know the location.

 Isn't this exactly why people book with outfitters/guides like Mossback?

 Same thing really.

[pianoman9701]

I wonder if it is the guides who are pissed then?

That could be, and in a state where they're actually regulated and have to pay big bucks for a license, that would be a motivator.

[DOUBLELUNG]

I wonder if it is the guides who are pissed then?

That could be, and in a state where they're actually regulated and have to pay big bucks for a license, that would be a motivator.

There are some hunters who dislike it on ethical reasons, but yes the big outcry is from outfitters who guide on the national forest - and who want to sell the same service with all the trimmings for more money. 

[jjhunter]

Interesting...I see that Brian Latturner hooked up with an outfitter this year.  His scouting packages created all the uproar last year.  Powerful outfitters association in WY.

[pianoman9701]

I wonder if it is the guides who are pissed then?

That could be, and in a state where they're actually regulated and have to pay big bucks for a license, that would be a motivator.

There are some hunters who dislike it on ethical reasons, but yes the big outcry is from outfitters who guide on the national forest - and who want to sell the same service with all the trimmings for more money.

They object on ethical reasons but are still OK if you hire a guide who does the same thing? Interesting double-standard. I understand registered guides objecting and for that reason (as well as never intending to use one for myself), would certainly oppose scouting by drone. But if someone thinks selling coordinates somehow holds a lower ethical ground than hiring a guide, they're not looking at the end result - same, same.

[bobcat]

This is what prompted them to write the proposed new law:

http://www.monstermuleys.com/hunt-consulting-scouting/


Here's another Wyoming scouting service in which they use airplanes to locate trophy animals:


http://wescout4u.com/public-land-scouting-packages/wyoming-scouting-packages/

[boneaddict]

Isn't this what deerking was doing in Colorado until he got busted for poaching.

I know folks have suggested I do it.   I have no interest.

[Rainier10]

This will be an interesting one to follow. Not sure what side of the fence I am on here.  I can see it being a slippery slope for sure.

[lord grizzly]

interesting all the "ethics" proposals coming up in game departments. probably speaks volumes for what the modern hunter in this internet culture has become

[Gringo31]

Interesting....


I guess I never thought of people actually doing it as a business.  I wish we'd all lose our cell phones....... 

[Bob33]

You've waited 20 years to draw the coveted tag. The quest of a lifetime, the monster bull is in your sights.

Wait - should I shoot, or make a call to report the coordinates for a $10K finder's fee?

[optic2]

The outfitters in WY have too much political pull. You can't hunt wilderness areas as a non-resident in WY without a guide. The one excuse I heard was that you may run into a grizzly or be unprepared to deal with the backcountry. But you can go backpacking there all you want. I guess in WY grizzlies only attack hunters and leave the backpackers alone!

[jjhunter]

Hunting and fishing information has been sold for years in one form or another.  I have no issue with it. 

Magazines
MRS
Huntin Fool
Epic Outdoors
GoHunt
Outfitters
Drop Camps
Scouting packages
DIY maps

Seems like it only becomes an issue when big critters are involved. 

[greenhead_killer]

Or the outfitters getting upset they don't have a monopoly on the market.

[idaho guy]

Hunting and fishing information has been sold for years in one form or another.  I have no issue with it. 

Magazines
MRS
Huntin Fool
Epic Outdoors
GoHunt
Outfitters
Drop Camps
Scouting packages
DIY maps

Seems like it only becomes an issue when big critters are involved.

  I see no problem with it either or any difference from what has already been done. Like it or not hunting for some people is becoming a money game. I actually enjoy the scouting part of the hunt but if I was going blind out of state and did not have the time to scout this seems like a reasonable deal. You still have to hunt and they are not tying bucks up to trees

[dreadi]

It's the same as gathering information on the ground vs gathering it from the air. Insert the correct military lexicon if you prefer.

[Stein]

This is what prompted them to write the proposed new law:

http://www.monstermuleys.com/hunt-consulting-scouting/


Here's another Wyoming scouting service in which they use airplanes to locate trophy animals:


http://wescout4u.com/public-land-scouting-packages/wyoming-scouting-packages/

In my estimation, my services can improve your odds of harvesting a "special" buck by 4000%

So, if you have a 10% chance of harvesting a great buck and you pay him, your chances go up to 400%!  That's worth the money right there.   

[goldenhtr]

I see no problem with this guy scouting for a deer you may see or not. He makes a great point about out of state hunters or the very busy hunter and the time it takes to scout these beasts. I DO NOT agree with using aircraft to spot animals. That just seems wrong, to me that's no different than using a drone to get over the next ridge to see if anything is over there.
 before hiking over there. What this first guy does is no different than a guide going in in the summer and finding animals and then taking in clients by horse or mule to hunt those animals he scouted.

http://www.monstermuleys.com/hunt-consulting-scouting/

[Stein]

It is obviously perfectly legal to hire a guide that may have people out scouting and/or game cams so that he gets you on the animals.  In my mind, if he wants to charge a bit less and just tell you what he knows without having to help you, I don't see that as different.

With airplanes, it seems no different if you are in the plane of if a guy is texting you coordinates and pics.  One is legal and the other isn't (as of now).

That said, how would the proposed law be enforced?

My vote would be to just let it go. 

[OutHouse]

Completely agree with comments on how this is essentially what a guide service offers. It's a double standard and probably designed to protect the guide economy. Of course, the guide gets to charge a whole lot more even for mere information but if your average guy does it they want to outlaw it. Ridiculous.

[pianoman9701]

I'm not a drone guy. I don't have one. I'm not going to use one for scouting or hunting. But, what other people do within the law is their business. This is not an ethical dilemma for me. I just like to hunt and scout they way I do. To each their own and far be it for me to try and force regulations on another hunter's way of doing things. And, it is every bit the same as hiring a guide with the one exception: it could put some guides out of business in states where they pay for licenses to guide the money men to big animals. In this respect alone, I wouldn't care if states like WY and MT made it illegal or as an alternative, made the guys selling the coordinates procure a guide's license. 

[Bob33]

I would use a guide under certain circumstances but wouldn’t pay for coordinates. To me the use of a guide is far more than simply taking me to an animal to shoot. I understand the motives for paying for information, but I believe it reinforces the concept that hunting is more about killing something, rather than the experience of actually hunting for something, successful or not.

[Tbar]

You've waited 20 years to draw the coveted tag. The quest of a lifetime, the monster bull is in your sights.

Wait - should I shoot, or make a call to report the coordinates for a $10K finder's fee?

Have your kid shoot it!  Way more satisfying.(if they have the tag)   

[Tbar]

I have no doubt that this practice would pencil out as a great value.  That said it goes too far.  Internet fame and record book fame is a key element and driver to our demise as a collective hunting group.  If we lose ethics, we lose it all in the court of public opinion.  The will of the people, be it through voter initiatives or the legislative process will chip away at our hunting heritage.  I feel like it is key to self (as hunters) regulate against things that cross ethical lines.  This may be one of those issues. 

[JLS]

I see some folks view this as protectionism for outfitters.  I disagree.  While it does secondarily serve as a protection for LICENSED outfitters, it is also relieving pressure on a finite and regulated resource (trophy mule deer).

Outfitters are regulated in Wyoming.  They are limited in number, and I believe they are also limited in the number of clients they can serve in a year.  This is also true of the federal land agency they operate on (i.e. Forest Service, BLM, etc.)  Outfitters are regulated for a number of reasons, one of which is the increased pressure on a resource. 

Allowing people to operate in an unregulated manner, where they sell coordinates/locations of trophy animals is directly placing a higher level of pressure on these animals.  This is no different than offering an unregulated number of drop camps in an area, packing services, etc.  The end result is more pressure on trophy deer during a season and ultimately a reduced level of opportunity because of it.

I personally know one of the folks involved in this legislative effort, and I can guarantee you his efforts are in NO way geared towards protecting outfitters.  He is public land, DIY to the core and will always be so.   This is about addressing the impacts the Doyle Moss's of the world have on trophy quality animals.

[wheels]

how could this even be enforced

[Bob33]

how could this even be enforced

Enforcement responds to the Craigslist ad. When he offers to sell coordinates he is charged.

[Netminder01]

tag

[idahohuntr]

I support this effort...hunting is becoming too commercialized, steps to reduce the monetization of wildlife will benefit sportsmen long-term.  I have no issue with regulated guiding as it may be the only way some folks could access the wildlife we all own.

[dewandgin]

I support this effort...hunting is becoming too commercialized, steps to reduce the monetization of wildlife will benefit sportsmen long-term.  I have no issue with regulated guiding as it may be the only way some folks could access the wildlife we all own.

 

[idaho guy]

I see some folks view this as protectionism for outfitters.  I disagree.  While it does secondarily serve as a protection for LICENSED outfitters, it is also relieving pressure on a finite and regulated resource (trophy mule deer).

Outfitters are regulated in Wyoming.  They are limited in number, and I believe they are also limited in the number of clients they can serve in a year.  This is also true of the federal land agency they operate on (i.e. Forest Service, BLM, etc.)  Outfitters are regulated for a number of reasons, one of which is the increased pressure on a resource. 

Allowing people to operate in an unregulated manner, where they sell coordinates/locations of trophy animals is directly placing a higher level of pressure on these animals.  This is no different than offering an unregulated number of drop camps in an area, packing services, etc.  The end result is more pressure on trophy deer during a season and ultimately a reduced level of opportunity because of it.

I personally know one of the folks involved in this legislative effort, and I can guarantee you his efforts are in NO way geared towards protecting outfitters.  He is public land, DIY to the core and will always be so.   This is about addressing the impacts the Doyle Moss's of the world have on trophy quality animals.

Well said that is a great point that I had not thought of. I was against this new law before I was for it! Ha ha Seemed harmless but I can definitely see this point. Thanks for posting, sometimes you have to think things through a little bit more than I do!