Pneumatic arrow gun allowed during Archery and Muzzloader Special Seasons

[Duckslayer89]

My dad has had to have 2 rotator cuff surgerys, one on both shoulders. Recently tore his left shoulder again. Does this qualify him for being disabled? He can't really pull his bow back very well anymore and can't hold it steady

[Stump]

The ADA manager from the state just contacted me and the Airbow could be approved under the SUP application process.

[Stein]

Why do you assume that anyone using one of these is going start shootng elk at 300+ yards?

More concerning than your lack of faith in the ethics of other hunters is the assumption that there are going to be a bunch of people filing for "fake" dissabled hunter permits. Who's going to be assigned the task of deciding who's disabled enough to qualify? I don't know your background or qualifications, so maybe you are qualified to make that distinction. As it stands right now disabled hunter applicants are required to present evidence from a doctor. Do you think that WDFW is qualified to make that decision? I have a former customer who has polio but has been denied a disabled hunter permit multiple times.

I didn't say it was unethical, or even that people would use them for that.  I said something that has the power and accuracy to take elk at 400 yards isn't a primitive weapon.  I think that WDFW is qualified and should make that decision.

If you want my opinion on whether people who aren't disabled apply and receive the tags, I would say it would probably mirror the situation with disabled parking permits.

[Duckslayer89]

Why do you assume that anyone using one of these is going start shootng elk at 300+ yards?

More concerning than your lack of faith in the ethics of other hunters is the assumption that there are going to be a bunch of people filing for "fake" dissabled hunter permits. Who's going to be assigned the task of deciding who's disabled enough to qualify? I don't know your background or qualifications, so maybe you are qualified to make that distinction. As it stands right now disabled hunter applicants are required to present evidence from a doctor. Do you think that WDFW is qualified to make that decision? I have a former customer who has polio but has been denied a disabled hunter permit multiple times.

I didn't say it was unethical, or even that people would use them for that.  I said something that has the power and accuracy to take elk at 400 yards isn't a primitive weapon.  I think that WDFW is qualified and should make that decision.

If you want my opinion on whether people who aren't disabled apply and receive the tags, I would say it would probably mirror the situation with disabled parking permits.

Fat lazy people only? 

[Mudman]

Just common sense tells me that this weapon is not an accurate, consistant, lethal 400yard killer.  Sorry but drama is getting ridiculous.  It shoots 450fps, ok cool.  We are shooting bows over 300+fps and 200yards isn't a consideration.  Would it kill at 400y?  Probably if ya aim at tree tops.  I don't buy into the BS.

[Bookworm007]

Just common sense tells me that this weapon is not an accurate, consistant, lethal 400yard killer.  Sorry but drama is getting ridiculous.  It shoots 450fps, ok cool.  We are shooting bows over 300+fps and 200yards isn't a consideration.  Would it kill at 400y?  Probably if ya aim at tree tops.  I don't buy into the BS.

I agree with Mudman, I'm thinking these specs are overrated. Just going off what it takes to shoot a pellet rifle at those ranges with that much accuracy you are going to have a huge set up to shoot an arrow at those ranges. 

[3dsheetmetal]

Just common sense tells me that this weapon is not an accurate, consistant, lethal 400yard killer.  Sorry but drama is getting ridiculous.  It shoots 450fps, ok cool.  We are shooting bows over 300+fps and 200yards isn't a consideration.  Would it kill at 400y?  Probably if ya aim at tree tops.  I don't buy into the BS.

  it's good out to about 75yds.

[Duckslayer89]

Might be able to throw a double turn VX6 HD on there and really reach out. Might be kind of cool actually in firearm restricted areas

[mkcj]

[winshooter88]

At one of the recent GMAC meetings the WDFW Disabilities lady was really pushing the airbow, and basically said that they legally have to make new weapons available if they will help persons with disabilities to be able to hunt. The bow hunter representatives and many other members were very much against the use of these even for disabled hunters, let alone in regular seasons. As far as I know they are not legal for anything but disabled hunters at this time and haven't been approved for non-disabled use yet. As for getting approved for disability status, a couple years ago they changed the requirements to make it harder for people to work the system and get approved for disabled accommodations because there were many, many people getting approved as disabled who weren't actually disabled. Getting approved to use a crossbow during archery season is much harder than it used to be.

[yorketransport]

Just common sense tells me that this weapon is not an accurate, consistant, lethal 400yard killer.  Sorry but drama is getting ridiculous.  It shoots 450fps, ok cool.  We are shooting bows over 300+fps and 200yards isn't a consideration.  Would it kill at 400y?  Probably if ya aim at tree tops.  I don't buy into the BS.

I reject your reality and choose to substitute my own! The air bow may as well be a belt fed, full auto, long range tactical assault bow! It's about time the archery community had the option to "spray and pray".   

It's a lot more fun to panic and think that any movement from traditional methods is going to bring on the end of hunting and civilization itself. It's always kind of funny to see how the gun world embraces advancement and fights to support new technology, but large segments of the archery and muzzleloader community will fight against similar advancements.

[Tinmaniac]

An arrow propelled by air is not archery.Just as a rocket is not a firearm.I would like to see some repeatable penetration tests at 200,300,400 yards.A guy popping a ballon a 200 yards and being amazed he hit the target is not hunting.At some point in distance the arrow is no longer being shot it's just falling.A 375 grain arrow falling 200 feet is not going to kill an elk.That being said the airbow is pretty impressive.

[JDHasty]

An arrow propelled by air is not archery.Just as a rocket is not a firearm.I would like to see some repeatable penetration tests at 200,300,400 yards.A guy popping a ballon a 200 yards and being amazed he hit the target is not hunting.At some point in distance the arrow is no longer being shot it's just falling.A 375 grain arrow falling 200 feet is not going to kill an elk.That being said the airbow is pretty impressive.

I have run the numbers and a 400 grain bolt launched at 450 fps retains 67 foot lbs of energy at 420 yards.  Eastman says 45-65 lbs energy for elk size game.

A 400 gr arrow traveling 275 fps is not "falling."  It has as much, or more forward momentum than a lot of 300 grain arrows launched from a compound bow does at the point it was launched.   

If you don't like my math, calculate it yourself.  If you don't like Eastman's numbers... there is no better authority so it matters not what anyone says, you have your mind made up. 

And there are videos of a guy hitting a 12 inch diameter balloon repeatedly at 300 yards with a Matrix 380, so since the pneumatic arrow gun has accuracy that exceeds crossbow accuracy and it will put an arrow completely trough an elk at 300 yards it is has a documented effective range of 300 yards on elk size game. 

As for "washington legal muzzle loaders that would effectively kill well beyond 250 yards in the right hands," I would give that statement the same consideration I used to give the guy who showed up at the trap range and couldn't break 15 targets "but never misses on live birds."  The difference is no one is present who was keeping score on these guys live bird shooting.  Or anyone who wants to claim such who cannot point to the registered targets on file with a sanctioning body. 

I have no issue with these being legal for use during the modern season, but Washington Archery and Muzzleloader are defined as "primitive weapon" seasons.  What is more, misfires are very common in Washington ML hunting, you are not allowed 209 primers, but these pneumatic arrow guns don't misfire, can have illuminated reticle scopes  and can be reloaded and fired eight times before a ML can be reloaded and fired a second time. 

They go so far beyond accommodation that they are a difference in kind rather than a difference in degree.  They do not belong in primitive weapon seasons.  I have archery hunted and had deer standing in front of me I could not shoot because it was not light enough or too dark out that I could have easily shot with my scoped crossbow or my scoped slug gun or my scoped rifle.  Fact is I have shot legal deer or elk between fifteen minutes after legal sundown and a half hour with all three, which is well after it would not be possible on a crappy day to get a good sight picture with any non illuminated archery sight. Illuminated low light scopes extend the hunting day by almost a half hour if you add up somewhere between 12 to 15 minutes extended hunting both morning and evening.   

[Stein]

It's always kind of funny to see how the gun world embraces advancement and fights to support new technology, but large segments of the archery and muzzleloader community will fight against similar advancements.

Maybe that is why they call it the "modern" season as opposed to "primitive weapons"?  Seems to make perfect sense to me.  One is modern, which by definition includes new advances.  One is primitive, which by definition excludes modern and new advances.

[Tinmaniac]

An arrow propelled by air is not archery.Just as a rocket is not a firearm.I would like to see some repeatable penetration tests at 200,300,400 yards.A guy popping a ballon a 200 yards and being amazed he hit the target is not hunting.At some point in distance the arrow is no longer being shot it's just falling.A 375 grain arrow falling 200 feet is not going to kill an elk.That being said the airbow is pretty impressive.

Without the 12' tall backstop those shots are impossible.The tall backstop is being used as a point of reference to aim at.Put a foam elk at 300 yards with no backstop used as reference and it's a miss every time.

I have run the numbers and a 400 grain bolt launched at 450 fps retains 67 foot lbs of energy at 420 yards.  Eastman says 45-65 lbs energy for elk size game.

A 400 gr arrow traveling 275 fps is not "falling."  It has as much, or more forward momentum than a lot of 300 grain arrows launched from a compound bow does at the point it was launched.   

If you don't like my math, calculate it yourself.  If you don't like Eastman's numbers... there is no better authority so it matters not what anyone says, you have your mind made up. 

And there are videos of a guy hitting a 12 inch diameter balloon repeatedly at 300 yards with a Matrix 380, so since the pneumatic arrow gun has accuracy that exceeds crossbow accuracy and it will put an arrow completely trough an elk at 300 yards it is has a documented effective range of 300 yards on elk size game. 

As for "washington legal muzzle loaders that would effectively kill well beyond 250 yards in the right hands," I would give that statement the same consideration I used to give the guy who showed up at the trap range and couldn't break 15 targets "but never misses on live birds."  The difference is no one is present who was keeping score on these guys live bird shooting.  Or anyone who wants to claim such who cannot point to the registered targets on file with a sanctioning body. 

I have no issue with these being legal for use during the modern season, but Washington Archery and Muzzleloader are defined as "primitive weapon" seasons.  What is more, misfires are very common in Washington ML hunting, you are not allowed 209 primers, but these pneumatic arrow guns don't misfire, can have illuminated reticle scopes  and can be reloaded and fired eight times before a ML can be reloaded and fired a second time. 

They go so far beyond accommodation that they are a difference in kind rather than a difference in degree.  They do not belong in primitive weapon seasons.  I have archery hunted and had deer standing in front of me I could not shoot because it was not light enough or too dark out that I could have easily shot with my crossbow or my slug gun or my rifle.  Fact is I have shot legal deer or elk between fifteen minutes after legal sundown and a half hour with all three well after it would not be possible on a crappy day to get a good sight picture with any non illuminated archery sight. Illuminated low light scopes extend the hunting day by almost a half hour if you add up somewhere between 12 to 15 minutes extended hunting both morning and evening.