Should 209 primers be legal?

[Sabotloader]

It's called a Jinx  (not sure on the spelling ).

I was just making a joke. Like he jinxed himself.

O now that makes all the sense in the world!!!  Being the really OLD coach that I am I would never really subscribe to such a thing as a Jinx or superstition....  But you know the game ain't over til its over - or coming off a baseball field - do not change your game socks while you are in a winning streak! - DO NOT step on the lined these things and a heck of a lot of things are not a jinx or superstition at all - But you really do not want to 'Temp Fate' you know - Well you know what I mean 

[Sabotloader]

It's called a Jinx  (not sure on the spelling ).

I was just making a joke. Like he jinxed himself.

O now that makes all the sense in the world!!!  Being the really OLD coach that I am I would never really subscribe to such a thing as a Jinx or superstition....  But you know the game ain't over til its over - or coming off a baseball field DO NOT step on the lines - or do not change your game socks while you are in a winning streak! - these things and a heck of a lot of things are not a jinxes or superstition at all - But you really do not want to 'Temp Fate' you know - Well you know what I mean 

[jagermiester]

Right?
Its the Italian in me. My mom actually smacked me in the mouth one time for asking if grandpa was going to die... Like saying it out loud might make it happen.

The truth is most all of us are going to have misfires or hang fires and if were able to use 209's then what are we going to blame it on.
I change my vote. I need an excuse for my bad habits.

[bobcat]

I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

[Sabotloader]

I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

Just out of curiosity... which CVA do you have?

[bobcat]

I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

Just out of curiosity... which CVA do you have?

It's the CVA Optima Northwest, and yes, I already know you hate CVAs.   

[JDHasty]

Right?
Its the Italian in me. My mom actually smacked me in the mouth one time for asking if grandpa was going to die... Like saying it out loud might make it happen.

The truth is most all of us are going to have misfires or hang fires and if were able to use 209's then what are we going to blame it on.
I change my vote. I need an excuse for my bad habits.

My Irish mother thought I had more likely than not summoned down the wrath of God on the entire family when at the age of ~ 17 I proclaimed that Archbishop Hunthausen was an unrepentant heretic and a NeoMarxist as well as a crackpot.  I think she considered any and all options available to get me to recant before hell-fire and brimstone rained down on the entire clan.  Ya' can't criticize the Archbishop, dontcha' know that?  Well I didn't know that and I stood by my analysis and if history of that nutjob's tenure at the helm of the Seattle Archdiocese is anything to go by and how he was eventually dealt with by The Church, what I recognized early on was a valid observation.   

[Sabotloader]

I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

Just out of curiosity... which CVA do you have?

It's the CVA Optima Northwest, and yes, I already know you hate CVAs.   

No  I wouldn't say I hate them... I had a few once.. but today I do not have any for good reasons in my mind.  The fact is ifn they work for you and the confidence is there - have at it....

I am just not sure why you do not think you could convert it to shoot 209's

Wait first... if Washington were to make 209's legal they would have to do something with the visible ignition rule also.  Safety would almost dictate that.

What twist is the barrel?

It should convert with just a few parts...

But as you know I am not a CVA expert...

mike

[bobcat]

I voted yes but if I wanted to use 209s I'd need to buy a new rifle. Unless CVA begins making a Washington legal breech plug that uses 209s. They do have a 209 breech plug that would fit my gun, but it wouldn't meet the "exposed to the elements" requirement. Well, maybe the WDFW will remove that rule as well? In that case, I could have a 209 capable muzzleloader for only about $35.

Just out of curiosity... which CVA do you have?

It's the CVA Optima Northwest, and yes, I already know you hate CVAs.   

No  I wouldn't say I hate them... I had a few once.. but today I do not have any for good reasons in my mind.  The fact is ifn they work for you and the confidence is there - have at it....

I am just not sure why you do not think you could convert it to shoot 209's

Wait first... if Washington were to make 209's legal they would have to do something with the visible ignition rule also.  Safety would almost dictate that.

What twist is the barrel?

It should convert with just a few parts...

But as you know I am not a CVA expert...

mike

It's 1 in 28.

This one:  https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/rifles/cva-optimatm-v2-northwest-legal.html

[Sitka_Blacktail]

why not just hunt Modern Season.

Because it's about some people trying to stop others from doing things they don't like, no matter what the consequences.

What about those who prefer the length of the Muzzleloader Season as it stands and are willing to put up with caps as a fair trade off.  What WDFW has come right out and said is that they expect harvest rates to increase and that in response Season length will be adjust to reflect that dynamic.

I am not sure why you feel that the use of 209 will result in a greater harvest.  If you a seasoned cap hunter you really do not have any problems with ignition. So the belief that a 209 might save you from misfires or no-fires is probably not a significant factor.

I feel season dates, weather, available units, and open sights are the greater factors in determining harvest totals.

I don't think it is really about the seasoned muzzy hunter that knows how to keep the #11 dry.  Even those guys have the occasional misfire/hangfire.  Part of it is people want to hunt in a season that still has unpressured, legal animals running around and they want to climb over stumps, cross creeks, walk through wet reprod and ferns and not have to wonder the whole time if the gun will go boom or not.
For the argument about making it more humane, then 209 and scopes should be allowed.....and scoped crossbows should be in archery.   

And at that point Archery and Muzzleloading would incrementally be shortened until ultimately they are close to the same length as Modern Firearms Season.   This is not my pie in the sky prognostication, it is what WDFW has said.

In my chosen unit, the muzzy season is already shorter than modern or archery.  Archery gets 30 days in the early season and 40 days in the late season and they can shoot any deer they see. It's either sex.  Modern season is 18 days early season and 4 days late season. Bucks only. Muzzy is 9 days in the early season. No late season. Bucks only. So evidently Muzzle loaders are already the most effective killers out there. (I'm being facetious)

Then there are special permits. Modern hunters can put in for 20 antlerless tags and they have the 18 day early season to succeed.  Muzzy hunters can draw for 5 antlerless tags and have only 9 days to succeed.

So it isn't all about success rate. Some of it is about how much pull you have. Archery definitely has more pull than muzzy hunters. Muzzies are the red headed step children of this state when it comes to hunting and hunting opportunities.

Ohhhh and both modern and archery hunters get a shot at the bucks after the rut has kicked in and the leaves are gone for better visibility.

[W_Ellison2011]

I voted no. Many reasons why! One would be that it is a more consistent ignition system even in the elements thus the amount of kills would greatly increase. That takes away from the idea of the muzzle loader. Its bad enough that the muzzy guys and gals are skirting the law by putting plastic and tape over their caps.. which technically is illegal because that means the cap wasnt exposed to the elements at all times. When i think muzzle loader hunting i think like my old hawkens .50 cal with a side hammer or even older muzzle loader rifles. If you are good you can hit targets at 100 yards with a round ball. These modern inline muzzle loaders using saboted rounds and such can shoot 150-200 yards no problem. If there is no significant difference between the 209 primers and caps then why push so hard for the 209’s? Doesnt make sense.

[goldenhtr]

why not just hunt Modern Season.

Because it's about some people trying to stop others from doing things they don't like, no matter what the consequences.

What about those who prefer the length of the Muzzleloader Season as it stands and are willing to put up with caps as a fair trade off.  What WDFW has come right out and said is that they expect harvest rates to increase and that in response Season length will be adjust to reflect that dynamic.

I am not sure why you feel that the use of 209 will result in a greater harvest.  If you a seasoned cap hunter you really do not have any problems with ignition. So the belief that a 209 might save you from misfires or no-fires is probably not a significant factor.

I feel season dates, weather, available units, and open sights are the greater factors in determining harvest totals.

I don't think it is really about the seasoned muzzy hunter that knows how to keep the #11 dry.  Even those guys have the occasional misfire/hangfire.  Part of it is people want to hunt in a season that still has unpressured, legal animals running around and they want to climb over stumps, cross creeks, walk through wet reprod and ferns and not have to wonder the whole time if the gun will go boom or not.
For the argument about making it more humane, then 209 and scopes should be allowed.....and scoped crossbows should be in archery.   

And at that point Archery and Muzzleloading would incrementally be shortened until ultimately they are close to the same length as Modern Firearms Season.   This is not my pie in the sky prognostication, it is what WDFW has said.

In my chosen unit, the muzzy season is already shorter than modern or archery.  Archery gets 30 days in the early season and 40 days in the late season and they can shoot any deer they see. It's either sex.  Modern season is 18 days early season and 4 days late season. Bucks only. Muzzy is 9 days in the early season. No late season. Bucks only. So evidently Muzzle loaders are already the most effective killers out there. (I'm being facetious)

Then there are special permits. Modern hunters can put in for 20 antlerless tags and they have the 18 day early season to succeed.  Muzzy hunters can draw for 5 antlerless tags and have only 9 days to succeed.

So it isn't all about success rate. Some of it is about how much pull you have. Archery definitely has more pull than muzzy hunters. Muzzies are the red headed step children of this state when it comes to hunting and hunting opportunities.

Ohhhh and both modern and archery hunters get a shot at the bucks after the rut has kicked in and the leaves are gone for better visibility.

Wow where to start, First of all I do hunt archery because of the longer season. You can to if you want to. To say archery hunters can shoot at ANY deer, you need to reread the regs. There are plenty of areas that you can't just shoot any deer. There are several units that do allow this as there are several MZ units that do the same. I don't know what unit you chose to hunt but the regs say all MZ general season units were Sept.30 - Oct. 8 you have the late season starting on Nov 20 until Dec 15 depending on what unit you want to hunt. I spent 33 years hunting modern and another 6 hunting MZ. I have now chose for the last 6 years to hunt with a bow, yes it affords me more time in the field if I want. I was never a fan of the choose your weapon when it came out and there brain washing has worked now pitting each group against each other over time in the field. 18 days for modern? Not where I used to hunt. Back then it was reduced to 9 and only recently they upped it to 11. You seem to be nitpicking the seasons, if you are not happy with your time in the field take more vacation or choose a different weapon it really is that easy. Good Hunting...........

Oh and as far as 209s go I could really careless either way. But I would like to be able to mount a camera on my bow.......................

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad shoulder so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.

[snake]

I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad should so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.

"More efficient weapon" is the key statement  here. 

[goldenhtr]

I have been paying to hunt Unit 660 Minot Peak because it's close to home and I can take my son out after school.  I'm not paying to hunt another unit in the late season. I probably won't pay to hunt there after this year. As for archery, I have a bad shoulder so it's not comfy to do any more. I do like hunting muzzy, but the season frankly sucks.

As for the season lengths I just posted, you can check yourself if you don't believe me. Early season rifle Oct 14-Oct 31. That is 18 days in my book. Archers get it Sept 1- Sept 29 Ooops only 29 days, not 30, my bad. and Nov 22 - Dec 31. That is 40 days. So 69 days of any deer archery and only 9 days of muzzleloading buck only season. And this is in a unit I am paying to hunt in. You can't tell me that there is a management reason that Archery can't give up some days to muzzleloading. Especially with bucks only for muzzy season. It's not management, it's political.  I'd hunt muzzy there if the season was reasonable. Instead I hunt modern so odds are better I'll get my deer. In fact I already have.  Politics is forcing me to hunt with a more efficient weapon.

First of all good for you getting your son out. I also enjoy hunting with my sons. If paying to hunt helps that's great but it's your choice. You are correct on the number of days but wrong on the point that it's ANY DEER for 69 days, now some units offer that option but others only offer any buck or 3 pt min. Just like MZ seasons some units offer any deer as well and others any buck. The number of days is a direct reflection of the success between archery and long guns. Sounds like you have hunted archery before?? I will say since I changed to archery I totally enjoy hunting alot more having to get VERY close to the game I'm after. With rifes getting out to 1000 yards now and MZs going out to 200+ archery is much more of a challenge and more fun, at least for me. Enjoy your time with your son now. Mine are grown with kids of their own. So it can be a challenge to get all three of us together on a hunt now. Oldest grandson is turning 9 next spring so in the next couple years it's been my goal to hunt all three generations together.