St Helens permit holders

[Screaminreelz]

I know there's a few of you permit holders out there.

[Boss .300 winmag]

And we wonder why or wildlife is all jacked up.

[Screaminreelz]

For those not familiar with what this is.

Urea is an inexpensive form of nitrogen fertilizer with an NPK (nitrogen-phosphorus-potassium) ratio of 46-0-0. Although urea is naturally produced in humans and animals, synthetic urea is manufactured with anhydrous ammonia.

[elkchaser54]

*Insert hoof rot conspiracy theory here*

[Boss .300 winmag]

So if it’s safe, why evacuate the area?

[RB]

So this just had to happen during the modern firearm Elk season? 

[Remnar]

For those not familiar with what this is.

Urea is an inexpensive form of nitrogen fertilizer with an NPK (nitrogen-phosphorus-potassium) ratio of 46-0-0. Although urea is naturally produced in humans and animals, synthetic urea is manufactured with anhydrous ammonia.

  Im dont know that it is any worse for a person than any other nitro fertilizer , but can smell like a meth lab for miles .

[jbeaumont21]

So if it’s safe, why evacuate the area?

No Anhydrous ammonia is not safe at all.  They put that stuff in the corn fields back in the Midwest. I walked into some vapors once that were leaking from a tanker and it nearly killed me.

[bobcat]

Yet they spread this stuff over all the deer, elk, grouse, and other wildlife and think nothing of it. Then expect hunters to pay to access their land to hunt sick or non-existent wildlife.   

[skeeter 20i]

So if it’s safe, why evacuate the area?

No Anhydrous ammonia is not safe at all.  They put that stuff in the corn fields back in the Midwest. I walked into some vapors once that were leaking from a tanker and it nearly killed me.

Yes this is nasty stuff.  This is from the MSDS sheet.

Statement of Health Hazard

Hazard Description
Ammonia is an irritant and corrosive to the skin, eyes, respiratory tract and mucous membranes. Exposure to liquid or rapidly expanding gases may cause severe chemical burns and frostbite to the eyes, lungs and skin. Skin and respiratory related diseases could be aggravated by exposure.
• Not recognized by OSHA as a carcinogen
• Not listed in the National Toxicology Program
• Not listed as a carcinogen by the International Agency for Research on Cancer

Emergency Treatment

Effects of Overexposure
Eye: May cause severe irritation, eye burns or permanent eye damage.
Skin: Irritation, corrosive burns, blister formation may result. Contact with liquid may produce a caustic burn and frostbite.
Inhalation: Exposure may result in severe irritation and / or burns of the nose, throat and respiratory tract. It may cause bronchospasm, pulmonary edema or respiratory arrest. Extreme exposure may result in death from spasm, inflammation or edema. Brief inhalation exposure to 5,000 ppm may be fatal.
Ingestion: Ingestion is unlikely since the material is a gas under normal atmospheric conditions. If ingested, it may cause burns and severe pain of the mouth, throat, esophagus and stomach or may be fatal.

[powderbounder]

Will this affect the wolves in the area that there not telling us about???😳🙀

[slowhand]

Sweet My area is not on the list 

[highbuckklr]

Maybe not in your area, but now everyone that usually hunts those areas are now in your area.

[slowhand]

I doubt that, I maybe see two other people all day. Always in the morning.
I hunt 8+ miles behind the gate. Most people would not even consider it. 

[highbuckklr]

Then you are probably good to go - good luck this week.

[Screaminreelz]

If it's anything like other areas I've seen it's in pellet form in the giant white bags. Mind you, they usually work 7 days a week doing this so you'll have all the truck traffic, helicopters, and extra man power out there too.

Just wait on the edges for the animals to come running out then blam blam blam

Be safe everyone.

[Antlershed]

Hot off the press

[bobcat]

Almost sounds like the change wasn't due to the weather but the complaints received from hunters.   

[slowhand]

  So now it's set up for during late Buck hunt. 

[Screaminreelz]

For the record I don't hunt this area any longer, stopped after the pay to play went into effect. So I really don't have a dog in this fight BUT, I think it would be in wdfw/weyco's best interest to consider permit holders almost stake holders and should consult them during hunting season when they plan doing stuff like this. If people are going to pay good money to access weyco land and good money to wdfw they should allow the best conditions possible.

just my 

[Antlershed]

Almost sounds like the change wasn't due to the weather but the complaints received from hunters.   

Definitely seems weird to cite the weather, but then apologize for making people upset.

[Blacktail Sniper]

It sounds like there were several complains about the initial notice, so it just seems appropriate that after setting one date, then a couple days later changing it, to appologize...

[Antlershed]

It sounds like there were several complains about the initial notice, so it just seems appropriate that after setting one date, then a couple days later changing it, to appologize...

Then why say they are changing it due to weather? Changing the date isn’t what upset people.

[jpharcher]

Weyco... What a bunch of TOOLS.....Go to pay to play, rake the dough then tell you that you can't enter the area because of weed control. It's only going to get worse for such a pathetic opportunity anymore to even hunt the once large west side elk herds.
Out of state looks like an every year reality instead of every other year anymore.

[Blacktail Sniper]

It sounds like there were several complains about the initial notice, so it just seems appropriate that after setting one date, then a couple days later changing it, to appologize...

Then why say they are changing it due to weather? Changing the date isn’t what upset people.

Let me try and break it down, maybe I didn't word it right.

They announced a date for a closure that effected permit holders. 

Now, they certainly received complaints about it having an impact on those permit holders planning to hunt elk in that area.

Now they are, by their words a few days later, rescheduling due to weather issues.  I don't know if that is why or not, maybe too much snow expected to fertilize properly, I don't know. 

Since the initial notice caused people to have to change or cancel plans, and now there is a different time frame, which will/could again effect new plans that may have been made which may now be affected by the new time frame, or by those who were not effected by the initial dates, but are now.

It just seems that they are just trying to say, "Hey, sorry, we know this sucks!"

And trying appease a group of people that are going to be inconvienced in one way or more, who have invested money and lost opportunity and are going to be upset.

I suppose they didn't have to send the second email out and just kept the closure from the original date and just extended it...

It sucks that to get to hunt there it costs so much, but it is clear when buying the permit that there may (read will) closures at times and that is just part of the package.

The tree farm and day to day operations will always take precedence.

Trying keep everyone notified as quickly as possible of changes like this just seems to be a considerate thing to do...

[Screaminreelz]

At least they make an attempt to notify where in the past before the permit situation they just went and did it. Didn't even post signs all you would see is the giant bags of fertilizer.

[whtbuck]

This goes along with the 1400 head of Elk that were euthanized and airlifted out of the 520 two years ago...

[huntnfmly]

This goes along with the 1400 head of Elk that were euthanized and airlifted out of the 520 two years ago...

Huh?

[Blacktail Sniper]

This goes along with the 1400 head of Elk that were euthanized and airlifted out of the 520 two years ago...

Source? 

By what agency?

[Salmonmoocher12]

 

[funkster]

Article doesn't say how many elk but it does say "state wildlife managers say it’s “likely” they will also cull the most severely affected animals."

http://nwsportsmanmag.com/editors-blog/wdfw-plans-begin-killing-worst-elk-sw-wa/

One thing is for sure, everyone has a theory about the severe decrease of elk in the SW area.

[Blacktail Sniper]

I remember when that was being discussed.  No questions there.

But airlifting 1400 dead elk, gonna need a little bit more verification on that part...

[funkster]

I remember when that was being discussed.  No questions there.

But airlifting 1400 dead elk, gonna need a little bit more verification on that part...

Yeah, no doubt. Like I said, a lot of rumors are floating around and everyone has an opinion, kinda like that old telephone game. Only thing I know for sure is, there isn't even close to the number of elk there used to be in the St.Helens tree farm. Not seeing elk is one thing but seeing very limited elk sign is very alarming.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Rumors, .. fact is,  between hoof rot, predators and lack of forage, the numbers are down.
Combine that with increased antlerless and opening of Margaret to general...
WDFW is now in the tree growing business..

[elkchaser54]

"RUMORS" run rampant when hunters stop seeing elk.  I just think most rumors start when the road hunters aren't hitting the elk or deer with the truck and need a reason to tell their wife why they get to spend all the time away from the family and spend huge sums of money to never get an animal. HAhaha .  The herd was well over objectives and then they offered huge amounts of antlerless to reduce herd size coupled with Hoofrot and you will definitely be seeing way less animals.  But I still love and hope its true that the timber industry is the cause behind Hoofrot.  That however is more of personal vindictive feeling then backed by anything factual or scientific.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00771/sthelens_01.pdf

[BA Mongor]

Elk Chaser,

I'm in my mid 50's, and was born and raised on the border of the Weyerhaeuser woods. I've spent my entire life up there, and still spend well over 200 days a year up there. As far as the area being well over the objectives, this was specific to a small area of the St. Helens herd. Mainly the animals concentrating around the mudflow The fact that the state handed out thousands of cow permits, while the herd was decreasing at a dramatic rate, was ridiculous.

Couple that with we now have more big cats than I have ever seen, hoof rot, and you have herds that are decimated, and at their lowest point ever. It's exactly what Weyerhaeuser wanted. How they continue to call the Toutle a Quality Tag, is beyond me. Is it better than the surrounding units, yes, but not by much.

Bottom line is, the herds should be allowed to rebuild, and they won't due that until we reduce the permits, kill more predators, and hopefully find a cure for hoof rot.

BA

[ph-10 bow]

there is another twist guys and I know a lot of you have noticed the herbacides are killing everything for 3 plus years. No food for the animals! the federal government is responsible for approving and policing  private timber companies. So guess what there doing what they want $$ grow trees as fast as they can.

[funkster]

Elk Chaser,

I'm in my mid 50's, and was born and raised on the border of the Weyerhaeuser woods. I've spent my entire life up there, and still spend well over 200 days a year up there. As far as the area being well over the objectives, this was specific to a small area of the St. Helens herd. Mainly the animals concentrating around the mudflow The fact that the state handed out thousands of cow permits, while the herd was decreasing at a dramatic rate, was ridiculous.

Couple that with we now have more big cats than I have ever seen, hoof rot, and you have herds that are decimated, and at their lowest point ever. It's exactly what Weyerhaeuser wanted. How they continue to call the Toutle a Quality Tag, is beyond me. Is it better than the surrounding units, yes, but not by much.

Bottom line is, the herds should be allowed to rebuild, and they won't due that until we reduce the permits, kill more predators, and hopefully find a cure for hoof rot.

BA

From my experience in the area, this sounds like the closet to the truth that I've heard.

[Blacktail Sniper]

Elk Chaser,

I'm in my mid 50's, and was born and raised on the border of the Weyerhaeuser woods. I've spent my entire life up there, and still spend well over 200 days a year up there. As far as the area being well over the objectives, this was specific to a small area of the St. Helens herd. Mainly the animals concentrating around the mudflow The fact that the state handed out thousands of cow permits, while the herd was decreasing at a dramatic rate, was ridiculous.

Couple that with we now have more big cats than I have ever seen, hoof rot, and you have herds that are decimated, and at their lowest point ever. It's exactly what Weyerhaeuser wanted. How they continue to call the Toutle a Quality Tag, is beyond me. Is it better than the surrounding units, yes, but not by much.

Bottom line is, the herds should be allowed to rebuild, and they won't due that until we reduce the permits, kill more predators, and hopefully find a cure for hoof rot.

BA

From my experience in the area, this sounds like the closet to the truth that I've heard.