AR-15 223 Reloading

[CoryTDF]

Gutpile,

Yes i did manage to find one of the rounds that would not fire. I'm glad you said something i forgot to mention this before. there was one round in particular that most defiantly was malformed it had a noticeable bulge on the shoulder. This round was for sure crushed. I did a once over of the brass that i fired that day and i cant see any problems with any of the other casings. It may bee that they are so slightly bulged that i will need to use the micrometer to tell i will give that a try. Thanks for the advise. i'll keep you updated.

sorry just wanted to use that!

[Gutpile]

Thats the problem then. Just back off the die and screw the center pin down till you get back to the proper depth. Any that were slightly bulged that did end up firing would be "blown" back out from the pressure and the bulge would be gone. They'd take the exact shape of the chamber. I had a feeling thats what the problem was. When I first started reloading I did the same thing. I was stumped.

[CoryTDF]

If the weather permits it i'm going to go out tomorrow and try to load some new stuff and shoot it. I'll keep you informed.

[MasterMisser]

warning!!! This is not going to be the readers digest version!!!
  OK Cory so like we talked about the last few days. there are a lot of possibilities! but the reason why this is happening is because all the different brands of brass are different in thickness. you bought factory loaded ammo and saved your once fired brass. which is what most of us do. the problem lies in the resizing! when a factory loaded case is fired it expands. when cases are different thickness it means some cases are going to expand more easily than others. when you reload different brands of cases you run a risk of the overall dimensions of the cases being different in size before the resizing stage. so now you need to re size the cases. it is very dangerous resizing a case that actually pushes the neck down into the shoulder of the case. this will cause an increase in pressure and could very easily damage your gun! there are factory specs for a reason!!! i have read everyones post threw this thread and i do not recommend neck sizing! the case's overall diameter is not changed when you neck size a case. which means it will have difficulty in cambering once reloaded. the reason your able to get some of the cases to fire and some not is due to the fact that the cases overall diameter are different in size which is not allowing the bolt to fully lock in place. your powder charges are fine. it has nothing to do with those or the bullet. your gun being a semi auto is having a problem with fully cambering the reloaded round. not due to the neck size, or the powder or even the primer not being fully set into the primer pocket! its the simple fact that the bolt is not fully locking! if the bolt doesn't fully lock the firing pin will not strike the primer. (hence the click). as you and i have discused several nights on the phone now... you need short base dies!!! short base dies are going to re size the case just under factory spec. this will allow the reloaded round to fully chamber and the bolt to lock allowing for the firing pin to make contact with the primer. some of the posts in this thread can be very dangerous and should NOT be tried. 

[MasterMisser]

on another note... it might have something to do with malformed brass but the only reason why i think differently is due to the fact that most of your rounds are firing. you only had 7 not fire. and if the shoulder of the brass was actually being pushed back into the case causing a bulge then all the rounds would have this problem not just some. remember that dies and presses are designed to give the user consistent loads. if you set the die to low, as being suggested don't you think this issue would of taken place with all your reloads... not just 7???. i see where gutpile is coming from but i do not believe that this is the case due to the inconsistent factors associated with your loads. just my two cents. but hey what do i know

[Gutpile]

then all the rounds would have this problem not just some.

Not really. Not all brass stretches the same after firing. Some will be just a smidge longer than others, especially if it been fired more than other brass. Some barely stretches at all. So if the seating die is backed off say 1/4 turn then it'll only try to crimp some of the shells. When I had the problem only a few did it and I just made sure to measure every case after sizing and trimmed what brass needed it. Problem solved. 

That said, I can't say FOR SURE thats whats going on here but I have a strong suspicon it is.

Don't mix brass. Trim it religiously, back off the dies. You'll be good to go. 

Don't back off the sizing die. Thats not at all what I mean. Back off the seating die, and screw the pin down so you still get the proper overall length.

MasterMisser
 

I love that name!!    Should be my name. 

[MasterMisser]

Quote
MasterMisser
 

I love that name!!     Should be my name. 


thanks... it was corys idea. and i agree with you on the fact that cases stretch differently but i think that with these cases sense they have only been fired the one time im not compleatly sold on the fact that they stretched that much. but only time will tell. and many many loads

[CoryTDF]

Alrighty then,

I just went out and bought the small base dies. I followed the instructions to the letter. I made up 20 rounds and plan to shoot them tomorrow. Overall i feel like the rounds look the same as the others but we shall see. Everything is to spec and i guess now all i can do is go shoot. Just keeping ya'll updated I'll be back with the results tomorrow as long as the wind isn't howling like today.

[FALFire]

You don't need small base dies, I've been reloading for 35 years and currently load for about a dozen AR's in various calibers, I have never needed small base dies in any one of them and that includes the lever action and pump acton rifles.

You cannot use neck sizing dies on any AR period. You will eventually end up with problems.

The problem you are having sounds exactly like what Gutpile is trying to describe to you.  During your bullet seating step, you are pushing the shoulder back very slightly creating a bulge where the case shoulder and the case body meets and that is what is causing the problem. This is solved by simply backing the SEATING DIE off, try two full turns from what the factory instructions tell you.

If the  bolt on an AR does not go fully into battery and lock up, you will end up with a KABOOM, where the round actually fires but there is nothing to contain the round in the chamber and you will literally blow the gun apart. It happens quite frequently to new reloaders that don't fully inderstand the process and problems associated with the AR platform.

As stated in these posts, you must back off the bullet seating die so that the crimping portion of the die body does not touch the case neck. If you want to crimp the neck simply use a Lee Factory Neck Crimping Die.

If you did not follow the instructions I gave you about adjusting your SIZING DIE, then you will also be creating the same syptoms as the crushed shoulder. You MUST push the shoulder back very slightly during the RESIZING STEP to allow the case to fully seat into the chamber.

Go back and very carefully follow my previous instructions and you should find that you are not getting one of the dies adjusted properly.

Remember, during the resizing step, you need to feel the CAM OVER of the press handle as the case is fully inserted into the die, that is what is pushing the shoulder back very slightly. You must back off the bullet seating die two turns after you touch the case mouth with the bullet seating die body to prevent the case mouth from being crimped during your bullet seating step. Then simply turn in the bullet seating stem until you have reached the desired OAL.

Your powder charge and bullet selection is not the problem.

One thing MasterMisser did not mention is case spring back. Once you resize a case, the brass does not come fully back into it's original shape, regardless of the dies you use. You always get case spring back and how much will depend on case thickness and the work hardness of the brass. If the brass gets too hard you need to anneal the brass to relax it so it forms easier. Usually I just toss the old brass as it has, in the past, been cheaper to buy new. There is lots of info available on the internet on how to anneal brass properly and it is very easy to do.


If you do not completely understand this procedure please ask for additional help. It's much cheaper than blowing up the gun and injuring yourself or others.

[CoryTDF]

FALFire,

I tried  adjusting my dies the way you told me and the first round into my gun got stuck. I have run my hands over my brass more times than i can count. I can't feel and deformations. I have measured the brass with a micrometer and it is all within spec. So i decided that because the short base dies are only $29 i will try them and load up some rounds. I did this mostly because the Speer manual that i have specifically mentions that i might need them for a semi-auto. MasterMissers recommendations seem valid enough and when i went back to my manual and found the same information i figured that it was worth a shot. I loaded twenty rounds today and went out and shot them. They preformed well, in fact, they shot as well as my factory Hornady ammunition. I don't know who is right here it may be both of you. However, for me and my gun short base dies seem to be the ticket. I have both sets of dies and alot of time so i will keep playing with the standard dies and see if i can get your method to work. I have come to the concussion that this is far more complicated than i originaly estimated. Lucky for me i enjoy it and look forward to leaning as much as i can. Either way i have found a round that works and i am happy. thanks for you help.

 

[FALFire]

Cory, I for one, certainly hope you get this problem figured out because the seriousness of a non-lockup round going off is enough to make anyone give up reloading. I will have to admit, trying to diagnose a problem on the internet is problematic to say the least, however, there have been multiple inquiries regarding this exact same issue and many times over it has come down to improper reloading techniques. Now, it is certainly possible you also have an out of spec sizer die, that would, in itself, cause you the same grief.

The small base dies should fix the problem but as many other reloaders, new and old, have found, in most cases the standard die set works just fine. It sounds as though you have a fix for the problem.

Enjoy.

[ICEMAN]

I have yet to reload for my .223, but I have been tooling up and getting components. All info provided here is valuable most importantly the warnings. Reloading is always an item to take seriously and exercise maximum caution. Thanks to all.

[FALFire]

I have yet to reload for my .223, but I have been tooling up and getting components. All info provided here is valuable most importantly the warnings. Reloading is always an item to take seriously and exercise maximum caution. Thanks to all.

You are so correct, and don't hesitate to ask questions. Safety is first, groups come from consistant loading good groups come from good safe consistant loading. It's imperative that you follow the basic rules of reloading for each caliber and each new gun you are reloading for.

[MasterMisser]

well I'm glad to see everyone is enjoying this thread. there is alot people take forgranted in the reloading process and falfire is right when it comes to consistant accurate reloads. i hope my recommendations were helpful and I'm glad to see them work for you Cory.