More blood and guts

[Dan-o]

1 issue I have is when these treaties were signed the definition of Indian was 100% Indian. Now the amount needed for hunting rights have been reduced to a small percentage. If they were held to the 100% Indian standard they would have pretty much bred themselves extinct by now.

Interesting.

I don't know if the treaties address this or not.

[Dan-o]

Dan-O
I can meet you half way in that I agree it is not poaching..  But it also is not being done in good faith any longer either.  The problem is we are dealing with a treaty vs law and one that is long over due for re-negotiation.  I'm sorry, but the way treaties work is based off of leverage.  The US has the leverage but no one wants to use it; and I'd hate for it to come to that.  There in lies the frustration.  The tribes refused to cooperate in good faith while being given decades of lattitude on several fronts (not just hunting/fishing).  I have no issues with the treaty and respecting it but that is a two way street.  Refusing to report harvest, refusing to self regulate and refusing to negotiate in public forum vs secret meetings leaves very few legs to stand on.  It is a perception issue, the treaty is not changing.  If they want to change perception, change the practices...  They have executed every loop hole possible and taken several matters well beyond anyone's reasonable expectation, but hey it's legal...  There is also nothing illegal with the perception and expressing the frustration as well; that is the sad part.

You think treaties were negotiated and respected in good faith in the past? Any time the US wanted something the natives had, they broke the treaty.  Most treaties were negotiated at the point of a gun. How's that for leverage? How about fishing treaties? The State of Washington used such good faith in respecting the treaties they billy clubbed native fishermen at Frank's Landing. The Feds flooded traditional fishing spots like Celilo Falls. I don't think they asked the natives their opinion on that or if they wanted to give up fishing there.

Right now, the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it.  Think of the frustration the Natives had when they were being overrun with European settlers.  I don't think "leverage" or force is gonna generate good will with the tribes. They've had enough of that and are now savvy enough to get good enough lawyers to fight it.  What needs to be done if you want to change things is offer them something of equal or better value to give up some of their treaty rights. Otherwise, you can just cuss your ancestors for not seeing into the future and writing a better treaty for you when they had all the leverage in the original treaty negotiations.

Serious question, not meant in any way to be confrontational, but what could possibly be out there to offer beyond (more?) money from the government, ability to make money from things like casinos, and hunting & fishing rights?

Sorry, but really can't come up with anything that could possibly get them to give anything they currently have up...

Great question......   I do not know the answer.

I don't know what kind of discretionary federal funds flow to the tribes (if any), I don't know about federal road projects, or other commerce-enabling things.   

Casinos..... seems like some tribes make a ton of money on casino's.   I don't know the logic behind not letting non-Natives compete in that arena.....  but I'm sure it's decided politically.   Seems like one more lever in negotiating.

In the end, I think there are only two possible outcomes:
  *  Continue on with the treaties as-is.
  *  Renegotiate (which implies both sides negotiate).

I don't see the US Gov't just walking away from the treaty, so why spend time and energy on that thought?

[dvolmer]

This pretty well sums it all up!  Even with all of the free stuff and super-hero rights, they are still in most cases miserable and unhappy.  Nothing will ever change.  It will always be the same.  They will go out and shoot it all up with there guns and trucks that have been bought with the tax payer money.  Sure there are exceptions.  Some who want to do whats right.  But that is few and far between.  When you try to change things to make it right, they will show up to court dancing in there furs, feathers, and moccasins.  Every liberal court in our state will side with them.  Just go for a drive through any of the reservations in our state and the facts above are easily verified.  But nothing and i mean nothing will ever change.  When the liberals finally win and take the hunting and gun rights away from Sportsman, the Indian will still be allowed to do as they please.  Go back over the last 300 to 500 years and there is nobody alive in this country that has ancestry that hasn't been conquered and treated unfairly.  We all should be getting a free ride because we all have been mistreated somewhere or at some time.  My question is, When is it all going to be done and everyone treated fairly???  Wow, I'm sounding like a liberal!!!!! ha ha (I wish it was really funny but its really not!!)

[farmin4u_98948]

The bashing never ends.   So sad.  You can’t pick your parents, when or where you are born. Some are born to privilege some to poverty.   Some are working and never getting ahead, some have no worries or wants. Just because it is not fair to you doesn’t mean it’s not fair. Get educated and stop the hate. Yes I’m 100% European decent. My family moved onto the Yakama Rez in 1917 on my mother’s side. 1931 on my fathers side. I am the 4 th generation of Satus area farmers. I have no more rights on the Rez than someone living in Seattle . I have seen the good and bad in Native and non Native. It’s easy to point fingures at the Natives cause they do hunt in the daytime within their treaty rights . There is way more damage done at night by non natives. I shake my head at how fast members of this forum throw out the whole box when it’s a limited few who are rotten.   SO SAD. NUFF SAID

[jnordwell]

So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldn’t do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

[Duckslayer89]

So how come no one has said this...
Legally as it maybe out of glen wood and trout lake the yaks are getting 75$ for a deer and 150+$ for elk.. non tribesman are paying them for this. Growing up around some of the Indians if they make money at it they will do it. So is that legal? I asked a game warden about it.. he said he couldn’t do anything about it... so how are his hands tied?

Just let them do it, who cares anymore. Kill everything off and eventually we won't buy tags. We can just go camping for a week at a time. Then WDFW won't have any money.

[Skyvalhunter]

Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.

[MADMAX]

fishing and hunting around this state sucks anymore
Unbelievable

Killing on wintering grounds, and netting the rivers has done this.
Needs to stop

Oh how about some trash dumping up in the woods also

Sad how its become

[trophyhunt]

The bashing never ends.   So sad.  You can’t pick your parents, when or where you are born. Some are born to privilege some to poverty.   Some are working and never getting ahead, some have no worries or wants. Just because it is not fair to you doesn’t mean it’s not fair. Get educated and stop the hate. Yes I’m 100% European decent. My family moved onto the Yakama Rez in 1917 on my mother’s side. 1931 on my fathers side. I am the 4 th generation of Satus area farmers. I have no more rights on the Rez than someone living in Seattle . I have seen the good and bad in Native and non Native. It’s easy to point fingures at the Natives cause they do hunt in the daytime within their treaty rights . There is way more damage done at night by non natives. I shake my head at how fast members of this forum throw out the whole box when it’s a limited few who are rotten.   SO SAD. NUFF SAID

I love it when someone throws out the racial card on this topic, no hate for the tribe as a whole here, it's about the resources and the lack of responsibility by a few.  Hate is Adolph Hitler, wanting to make us all equal is about as far from hate as you can get! I was given a vacation last time someone accused us (me) as being a racist, so I'll refrain from what I really want to say, you can probably guess.  As far as non natives poaching at night (or anytime), at least our law enforcement can do something about it and is.  The penalties that are given are not sufficient but at least something can be done.  I'd say most on this thread care about their fellow man just the same, the rotten apples ruin it on both sides, maybe we just care more about OUR fish and game then you do apparently? 

[trophyhunt]

Well its good to know that in his taking of 10 or so elk he is probably also killing a fair amount of pregnant cows. Kind of a warm, cozy feeling.

I wonder if its one of a couple that actually take 100 plus elk a year, imagine the impact two or three guys doing that yearly?

[Jpmiller]

What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

[Magnum_Willys]

Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves? 

[Ccortez]

Tribal Hunting = one more predator and the only one able to help us control the others..... how can we encourage tribal hound hunting of bear, cougar and wolves?

Some tribes are able to hound hunt but finding someone with hounds is difficult to find

[trophyhunt]

What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

Used to fish the Frazier river with a guide up in Canada, not sure about their hunting feelings, but they are not fond of the native fishing rights.  He used to run over their nets with his boat.

[farmin4u_98948]

What makes this a uniquely Washington problem? As I understand it many tribes across the west share the same hunting and fishing rights but I don't hear about how Wyoming wildlife is in shambles due to native harvest.

In Wyoming there are a lot more recourses and a lot less people,.600,00 in Wyoming .  7 million in wa. The game in Wyoming is scattered over the whole state.

Native American population in Washington is Appx 130,000
Native American population in Wyoming is appx 13,000

Of course they don’t have the same problems in Wyoming as we do.