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Author Topic: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts  (Read 38274 times)

Offline fishngamereaper

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2018, 06:25:02 AM »
My experiences with guides in the Church (never have used one just in passing) is they don't like the DIY out of state guys. Had an incident that actually had to be reported to the local leo years ago. Spike camp got trashed by a local guide cause we where apparently to close to his area..So I kind of lean towards the guides having a little something to do with the tag cuts. The fly boys are the ones taking the biggest hit. A few hundred less people in the towns is not a huge impact for that area as all the church jump off points are summer magnets for tourists and crowded as heck.

I think the adding of outfitter tags is a pipe dream. Guys that hunt the church don't want to or cant afford to hire a guide. SO what happens to the left over outfitter tags. Sold over the counter in August? Or given to non drawn applicants. 

Offline grade-creek-rd

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2018, 07:03:38 AM »
Action...here are the facts, just fyi.

Per IDFG the MOST hunters in Unit 27 (this is both NR and Resident) was 598...never 650+ as you state.

There are 26 active airstrip in the Frank Church, with 8 public ones that are the most "popular" in Unit 27...plus an additional 6 private ones in Unit 27 that outfitters use (an example is Pistol Creek...and Pistol Creek Outfitters). So that's actually 14 airstrips, not 4 and hunters also use trailheads not just airstrips.

The IDFG Commission made this decision against the recommendation of IDFG (biologist included)...keep in mind IDFG Commission is much like the WDFW Commission with the exception that the IDFG Commission gave themselves special powers in 2017 to allow them to make rules such as these...whereas the WDFW Commission is meant to be a board of citizens as an oversight to the Director. The Agenda for the IDFG ruling on this was titled: Unlimited Controlled Hunt Non-Resident Tag Numbers, Outfitter Allocation (Action).

And as far as history of groups...the airstrips have always been popular, even back in 1991 when I first went in there, the place I flew into had camps along the runway, the turn around, and down by the river, just as many back then as today. In 1995 I spent 21 days in there, my summer job of being a USFS Initial Attack Firefighter ended so I flew in and bummed around for 3 weeks and hunted...I saw way more deer and elk recently than I did in 95 (94 was the start of a bad winter for 3 years straight) and wolves were introduced in 1995 at this very airstrip, the first wolves to be transplanted in Idaho. The wolves wreaked havoc when we couldn't hunt them, even came down towards the airstrip (more than once tracks were seen going between tents). But once the wolves could be hunted they stayed away, in fact, the hunting has become absolutely better. The mule deer can breed without wolves eating and chasing them (using even more energy which eventually kills the mature bucks as they can't recover in time before winter) and the elk numbers are way up to where they were pre-wolf (or close to it...still now cow tags like before, but getting a bull is not that hard like it used to be when wolves were off limits).

And lastly, think about this, everyone on here says how great the hunting will be...though only 51 NR get to hunt it now (and hunters come from all across the country...I met a few guys from Wisconsin and NY in there that did DIY trips). What about the the Bee Hive Affect. Essentially we are taking man out of the area during the mule deer breeding time, allowing the wolves to have free range and once again wreak havoc during the most crucial time of the year for the deer. Without keeping the wolves away we will lose more mule deer and the big bucks suffer the most. There have been several studies done and mature mule deer bucks hurt the worst during winter as their fat reserves are depleted during the rut and they can't recover before winter, add in unchecked wolves, and there will be less mature bucks some spring...the wolves will spread, but the core packs will remain in the Frank Church, breeding and repopulating other areas where wolves are being taken out. Kind of like a beehive...you can kill the bees at the picnic table but if you don't kill the hive more bees will just show up at the picnic table...if man isn't in there to keep the wolves away from the breeding mule deer, less will get bred and the mature bucks will be run ragged before winter. At least now, the mere presence of man keeps the wolves away and anyone who has flown into the Frank during the late hunt has watched dozens of rutting mule deer, which don't care when you walk by them...heck, we had a deer come INTO our tent two years ago looking for our apples.

This is simply a take-away of a hunt and since this is Hunt WA (not hey, I live in Idaho ha ha guys...) we all should be concerned over losing yet another hunt to the agenda of a game commission that is being used as a ploy by businesses...oh, and for the Idaho guy who said that the outfitters aren't getting rich on these tags...no outfitter gets rich, but they argued and won their argument that they needed their own tags for this unit, and the commission gave them more tags than they even had clients for last year...the outfitters won.

Grade
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Offline grade-creek-rd

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2018, 07:11:00 AM »
There's more to life than hunting...there's fishing too!

Offline 2MANY

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2018, 09:38:26 AM »
I'm not a fan of unlimited late season hunts anywhere.

I'm also not a believer that introducing man into any eco system is a good thing over time.

The wild places should remain wild.

Offline theleo

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2018, 10:16:33 AM »
(most air strips are on private land or state land...none are on wilderness lands, and those that are managed by the FS are on national forest lands, not wilderness designations...and FYI, they use power tools in the Frank Church through a special use permit...they didn't put those bridges in place with hand tools).
FYI that permit is FS employees, not private citizens. It also requires them to be out there actually maintaining trails which they hardly do any of, any more. Heck, I even got word this year to cut trails as part of a volunteer group (BCHA off shoot) I need to have class and field time to be certified by the FS to use a crosscut. I've also been part of bridge removals, re-deckings, and replacements (small bridge) that were all done with hand tools.

Offline 2MANY

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2018, 10:39:30 AM »
True story.
I know if it weren't for my father's efforts the last few years one of the main trails into the Craigs wouldn't be passable.


Offline grade-creek-rd

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2018, 01:03:37 PM »
The bridges we're referring to in the Frank Church are steel cable bridges with welded trusses...definitely not put in by hand tools or carried there by horses...flown in via helicopter. Also, FS does give out Special Use Permits to private citizens, that's how guides can operate in the wilderness (commercial use permits) as well as we put a new roof on a backcountry cabin several years ago...using a helicopter and power tools, special permits are just that, a special permit to allow for a variance, regardless if its FS or private citizen.

Besides, all of that above regarding bridges and special use permits have nothing to do with the thread...it's about IDFG cutting NR tags to almost nothing based on false pretenses while the guides get above and beyond allotted tags...at least make it fair for everyone.

Grade
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Offline idaho guy

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2018, 02:16:37 PM »
Action...here are the facts, just fyi.

Per IDFG the MOST hunters in Unit 27 (this is both NR and Resident) was 598...never 650+ as you state.

There are 26 active airstrip in the Frank Church, with 8 public ones that are the most "popular" in Unit 27...plus an additional 6 private ones in Unit 27 that outfitters use (an example is Pistol Creek...and Pistol Creek Outfitters). So that's actually 14 airstrips, not 4 and hunters also use trailheads not just airstrips.

The IDFG Commission made this decision against the recommendation of IDFG (biologist included)...keep in mind IDFG Commission is much like the WDFW Commission with the exception that the IDFG Commission gave themselves special powers in 2017 to allow them to make rules such as these...whereas the WDFW Commission is meant to be a board of citizens as an oversight to the Director. The Agenda for the IDFG ruling on this was titled: Unlimited Controlled Hunt Non-Resident Tag Numbers, Outfitter Allocation (Action).

And as far as history of groups...the airstrips have always been popular, even back in 1991 when I first went in there, the place I flew into had camps along the runway, the turn around, and down by the river, just as many back then as today. In 1995 I spent 21 days in there, my summer job of being a USFS Initial Attack Firefighter ended so I flew in and bummed around for 3 weeks and hunted...I saw way more deer and elk recently than I did in 95 (94 was the start of a bad winter for 3 years straight) and wolves were introduced in 1995 at this very airstrip, the first wolves to be transplanted in Idaho. The wolves wreaked havoc when we couldn't hunt them, even came down towards the airstrip (more than once tracks were seen going between tents). But once the wolves could be hunted they stayed away, in fact, the hunting has become absolutely better. The mule deer can breed without wolves eating and chasing them (using even more energy which eventually kills the mature bucks as they can't recover in time before winter) and the elk numbers are way up to where they were pre-wolf (or close to it...still now cow tags like before, but getting a bull is not that hard like it used to be when wolves were off limits).

And lastly, think about this, everyone on here says how great the hunting will be...though only 51 NR get to hunt it now (and hunters come from all across the country...I met a few guys from Wisconsin and NY in there that did DIY trips). What about the the Bee Hive Affect. Essentially we are taking man out of the area during the mule deer breeding time, allowing the wolves to have free range and once again wreak havoc during the most crucial time of the year for the deer. Without keeping the wolves away we will lose more mule deer and the big bucks suffer the most. There have been several studies done and mature mule deer bucks hurt the worst during winter as their fat reserves are depleted during the rut and they can't recover before winter, add in unchecked wolves, and there will be less mature bucks some spring...the wolves will spread, but the core packs will remain in the Frank Church, breeding and repopulating other areas where wolves are being taken out. Kind of like a beehive...you can kill the bees at the picnic table but if you don't kill the hive more bees will just show up at the picnic table...if man isn't in there to keep the wolves away from the breeding mule deer, less will get bred and the mature bucks will be run ragged before winter. At least now, the mere presence of man keeps the wolves away and anyone who has flown into the Frank during the late hunt has watched dozens of rutting mule deer, which don't care when you walk by them...heck, we had a deer come INTO our tent two years ago looking for our apples.

This is simply a take-away of a hunt and since this is Hunt WA (not hey, I live in Idaho ha ha guys...) we all should be concerned over losing yet another hunt to the agenda of a game commission that is being used as a ploy by businesses...oh, and for the Idaho guy who said that the outfitters aren't getting rich on these tags...no outfitter gets rich, but they argued and won their argument that they needed their own tags for this unit, and the commission gave them more tags than they even had clients for last year...the outfitters won.

Grade


Grade you can still hunt there just maybe not the late season. I don't want to come off as "ha ha I live in Idaho" either. If I did  Im sorry. When an area has twice as many non resident hunters as residents I think that's a problem. With wolves, I want too know how many non resident deer hunters shot a wolf in the late deer season last ten years? I bet not very many. It would be great if hunters from anywhere would put half the effort into killing wolves as they do deer and elk but I doubt its happening up there during deer season. So I don't think your argument that non residents are controlling wolves holds any water. I could be totally wrong but would actually like to know how many as a percent kill wolves? I have seen a fair number of photos of big camps killing many deer and a lot were pretty young bucks. I think this move increases the age structure up their in a huge way in a few years. They did not take away your ability to hunt it just the timing. Almost any other western state you would have to draw a general tag just too hunt anywhere. That can take years, Idaho allows non residents to hunt over the counter most areas that's better than any western state I know of. Or at least any state that you would actually want to hunt in.  I have also seen game rules/seasons change in a few years and one time a season was changed and went back to the original season exactly 1 year later. Idaho fish & game is doing the right thing here in my opinion           

Offline 2MANY

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2018, 02:34:32 PM »
Crying over spilled milk comes to mind and the milk was wiped up days ago..

Offline theleo

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2018, 02:49:18 PM »
The bridges we're referring to in the Frank Church are steel cable bridges with welded trusses...definitely not put in by hand tools or carried there by horses...flown in via helicopter. Also, FS does give out Special Use Permits to private citizens, that's how guides can operate in the wilderness (commercial use permits) as well as we put a new roof on a backcountry cabin several years ago...using a helicopter and power tools, special permits are just that, a special permit to allow for a variance, regardless if its FS or private citizen.


A commercial use permit does not exempt outfitters from the no motorized equipment section of the Wilderness Act and NR tags never have been about making things fair for everyone. NR tags are to exploit hunters who would rather hunt in another state rather than close to home. If you want the perks of being an Idaho resident, then become an Idaho resident.

Offline grade-creek-rd

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2018, 05:41:26 PM »
Idaho guy...I agree with your last post, and in fact I hunt the general season often. As far as wolves go, I know of 3 taken at Mahoney in 2016 in that 18 day late deer season...and my statements about man keeping wolves away is true if you talk to those that hunt that season, at least while the 18 day season is going there is less wolf activity near the runways, allowing the deer to breed without the wolves pushing them around. As far as other states, it's a slippery slope to compare Idaho to other states, as Idaho's small towns get the benefits of the hunters, and let's see what the future holds when it comes to residents now hunting this unit with the absence of NR's.. I'm gonna guess that there will be little to no increase in resident hunters in unit 27. And if I'm wrong, then that's a win as well as that means the people of towns like Salmon, Cascade and such will at least get some revenue that was displaced.

For the others that keep going off topic with special use permit and stock questions...and apparently I'm crying over spilled milk...look at my previous comments, my main concern is another hunt taken away from hunters that was not based on game management and hurts the local economy. I'll still go into the Frank Church if I want to, and elk hunt...it's sad that this hunt is being restricted like it is as it could lead to a new future of hunting restrictions...

I wish I could live back on Idaho...those were some of the best days of my life, but like everyone else, responsibilities have me living in a city that I don't care to live in but it pays the bills...maybe someday I'll get to return to Idaho (yes, I lived in Idaho...)

Grade

Oh, and Idaho guy...if you can talk your buddy into flying into unit 27 next year be sure he gets checked off to land at the airstrip...every pilot must pass a test and show profiency at the airstrip they intend to land at if it's one of the public airstrips. Just fyi, as at least 3 planes have crashed while I've been going there. If you want more info on where I hunt, I'd be happy to share, seriously, but pm me as I won't give up the info on the open internet... ;) I really am not mad, though some are trying to insight an argument, I'm just very disappointed in IDFG...hopefully it's just a short term decision.
There's more to life than hunting...there's fishing too!

Offline actionshooter

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2018, 09:55:22 PM »
Action...here are the facts, just fyi.

Per IDFG the MOST hunters in Unit 27 (this is both NR and Resident) was 598...never 650+ as you state.

There are 26 active airstrip in the Frank Church, with 8 public ones that are the most "popular" in Unit 27...plus an additional 6 private ones in Unit 27 that outfitters use (an example is Pistol Creek...and Pistol Creek Outfitters). So that's actually 14 airstrips, not 4 and hunters also use trailheads not just airstrips.

The IDFG Commission made this decision against the recommendation of IDFG (biologist included)...keep in mind IDFG Commission is much like the WDFW Commission with the exception that the IDFG Commission gave themselves special powers in 2017 to allow them to make rules such as these...whereas the WDFW Commission is meant to be a board of citizens as an oversight to the Director. The Agenda for the IDFG ruling on this was titled: Unlimited Controlled Hunt Non-Resident Tag Numbers, Outfitter Allocation (Action).

And as far as history of groups...the airstrips have always been popular, even back in 1991 when I first went in there, the place I flew into had camps along the runway, the turn around, and down by the river, just as many back then as today. In 1995 I spent 21 days in there, my summer job of being a USFS Initial Attack Firefighter ended so I flew in and bummed around for 3 weeks and hunted...I saw way more deer and elk recently than I did in 95 (94 was the start of a bad winter for 3 years straight) and wolves were introduced in 1995 at this very airstrip, the first wolves to be transplanted in Idaho. The wolves wreaked havoc when we couldn't hunt them, even came down towards the airstrip (more than once tracks were seen going between tents). But once the wolves could be hunted they stayed away, in fact, the hunting has become absolutely better. The mule deer can breed without wolves eating and chasing them (using even more energy which eventually kills the mature bucks as they can't recover in time before winter) and the elk numbers are way up to where they were pre-wolf (or close to it...still now cow tags like before, but getting a bull is not that hard like it used to be when wolves were off limits).

And lastly, think about this, everyone on here says how great the hunting will be...though only 51 NR get to hunt it now (and hunters come from all across the country...I met a few guys from Wisconsin and NY in there that did DIY trips). What about the the Bee Hive Affect. Essentially we are taking man out of the area during the mule deer breeding time, allowing the wolves to have free range and once again wreak havoc during the most crucial time of the year for the deer. Without keeping the wolves away we will lose more mule deer and the big bucks suffer the most. There have been several studies done and mature mule deer bucks hurt the worst during winter as their fat reserves are depleted during the rut and they can't recover before winter, add in unchecked wolves, and there will be less mature bucks some spring...the wolves will spread, but the core packs will remain in the Frank Church, breeding and repopulating other areas where wolves are being taken out. Kind of like a beehive...you can kill the bees at the picnic table but if you don't kill the hive more bees will just show up at the picnic table...if man isn't in there to keep the wolves away from the breeding mule deer, less will get bred and the mature bucks will be run ragged before winter. At least now, the mere presence of man keeps the wolves away and anyone who has flown into the Frank during the late hunt has watched dozens of rutting mule deer, which don't care when you walk by them...heck, we had a deer come INTO our tent two years ago looking for our apples.

This is simply a take-away of a hunt and since this is Hunt WA (not hey, I live in Idaho ha ha guys...) we all should be concerned over losing yet another hunt to the agenda of a game commission that is being used as a ploy by businesses...oh, and for the Idaho guy who said that the outfitters aren't getting rich on these tags...no outfitter gets rich, but they argued and won their argument that they needed their own tags for this unit, and the commission gave them more tags than they even had clients for last year...the outfitters won.

Grade
Hey Grade, If your going to post the facts, Here is where I found mine....
Here is the link for 2017  drawing odds, https://idfg.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/odds/?_ga=2.121569419.2080621079.1522815274-1290673464.1522454103 , says 670 people drew the tag and I look at this because a lot of people don't turn their hunter reports.
 We don't know how many actually went, or went with guides or bought a tag because they live in there.
 You definitely skewed or misinterpreted what I was saying about the airstrip count, yes there are way more than 4, BUT we both know that the main 4-5 which are public see 80%+ of the hunters. And that's from the pilots and one of the Bios which I speak to every year.
 I completely disagree about the number of people who are in there, from you dates your giving you have been going for 5-6 years longer than me  (I have only missed a couple) and the people population has been  steadily increasing, there have been years where I have spent an entire season in there with less than 5 other camps on one of the major public airstrips (long time ago). That is until the internet and a couple stories in hunting magazines changed things.
 As far as the wolves, it was pretty ugly when I started going....the deer and elk were constantly spooked, the elk wouldn't talk and very seldom saw more than 4-5 together. The wolves didn't seem to bothered by the hunters, we had them in camp a couple times.... Without a doubt that has gotten better.
 As far as the wolves being kept busy buy the hunters....maybe?, Could be something to that....I haven't seen a wolf during that season for a long time and only actually know of a couple killed in the last couple of years.
 Not trying to pick a fight here.....just relaying what my experiences have been, (figured I have been in there close to 200 days through the years), and my opinion on what needed to happen, not completely happy with the amount they reduced it, but I still think the tags needed to be reduced.

Offline actionshooter

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2018, 10:01:04 PM »

Offline Chad E.

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2018, 06:12:32 AM »
Generally I agree with tag cuts to improve a herds health but I find a drastic cut targeted only at non residents a bit strange.  It not longer seems for herd health but simply retaliation.  I know currently license sales show it's mostly non residents but that could easily change.  If it really were a herd health issue they would of capped all late tags in the unit.
I understand as a non resident that I'm not on the same playing field as residents but this particular cut feels very much in line with Wyoming's wilderness law or the continued cuts to small non resident quotes in G and H in the name of saving the herd while allowing unlimited resident general hunting.  Call it what it is, a restriction on non residents for the sake of creating better resident opportunity.

Offline lord grizzly

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Re: Idaho unit 26/27 cuts
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2018, 06:15:41 AM »
I like how that sounds even better

 


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