It begins again, more wolf cattle kills 2018

[KFhunter]

There's wolves all over just above his place I was saddened to see evidence of them last winter and this spring.  He sees the writing on the wall, he can't even graze his own acreage anymore, the government is literally devaluating his entire homestead making it toxic to ranch cattle in a wolf infested area.

His ground borders right up against thick cover, wolves can come and go with impunity, he can't shoot them, he can't trap them, nothing the wolf huggers want him to do will work. 

Another rancher nearby did all that stuff, he invited WDFW, CNW DOW whomever to come and use non lethal means to protect his livestock on his private property.

I was laughing and shaking my head (a humorless laugh) at his blinking lights and fladry then super fladry,  wolves don't give a crap about all that stuff, he had dead calves inside the little enclosure of all these tricks.  Fladery and all that crap is just feel good propaganda for people in the city who don't know any better what goes on out here.

[idahohuntr]

Did I say that the government should support the ranchers? No, I didn't say anything even resembling that. What I said was those predators' protections weren't part of the equation when the ranchers' ancestors "made the choice" to settle there. Rightfully, wolves were being heavily controlled and that control was being pushed by the government with equal fervor as the cattlemen. It was the government which changed the rules of the game.

Yes, government policies and laws changed.  That's life...happens all the time...whats you're point if you are not suggesting the government owes the ranchers something? My stance is, capitalism will play out and people will either survive or go out of business.  Sounds like this rancher may have to move his cattle to private ground where it must be safer in his view so he can continue to make a profit...good for him...that's capitalism.     

 

[idahohuntr]

Isn't this what the enviros want? Ranching off public land?

The irony should be thick that we will see more feed lots when these same kinds of people want free range grass fed beef.

I've heard ranching skeptics say that ranchers are on gov welfare because of thier cheep rent... If they stop renting is it really cheep enough? How does the USFS propose to make up the revenue? They certainly don't log enough...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I support capitalism and free markets...if a rancher determines the costs are too great to continue grazing on public lands then he is free to move or change his operation in any manner consistent with law to ensure he maintains a profit.  Part of the cost/benefit analysis needs to be expected losses as a result of predators if you choose to graze in areas where predators are present.

You final statement ignores the facts of ranching history. Most of the people who started ranches in that area had already dealt with and controlled a majority of the predators who threatened their assets and livelihood. Bringing the wolves back came after they made their "choices" decades prior. It is a fact that many of the ranchers rejected the wolf plan exactly because of that - they'd built their ranches and homes for generations, understanding they had the government's support and indeed, their help in controlling wolves. You may go on to say that they have a choice to stay in the ranching business but that's not really a choice at all.

So in an ever changing world it's the governments responsibility to support ranchers forever?  Again, I will defer to capitalism.

Your argument is flawed, more livestock have been killed by wolves on private ground than on public grazing leases, you know this, we've discussed it, you don't care. This "capitalism" argument that your using now is as disingenuous as you are.

What you bolded is not specific to public or private ground...wherever you choose to run a cattle operation, part of the equation needs to include the effect of predators.  Period.  I get that predators have increased as a result of government policies...that's life...deal with it or go out of business.   

[gaddy]

Or deal with the predators that weren't here when the business started.

[KFhunter]

That's the rub isn't it?  Ranchers aren't allowed to "deal with" the wolves.

[timberfaller]

I'll bring this into the debate!   Some time ago(30+ years, pre wolf) the Cattleman's Association held a meeting in Spokane because of the "greenies" taking over the USFS and other agency's controlling the ranges.  This in turn was creating financial woe's on the cattlemen who put their cattle on public land.    Of course this all fell on deaf ears, didn't fit the coming agenda.

The Association told the "Powers that be" you pull or force us off the range's "you'll see sitting here in Spokane the results.  Cattle keep the forest floor clean and beat back the brush thickets. The sky's will glow from wildfires."They were and still are right about that prediction!! 

"Environmentalism"  has caused more damage to habitats and loss of forest revenue then any four legged bovine ever has!    Putting the wolf back into the equitation just screwed it up even more BUT it fits the agenda!   

[nwwanderer]

Not allowed to 'deal with it'.  If five wolves were consuming a thousand dollar calf the rules say he could take one, not five wolves.  If the calf was consumed no help from WDFW would be distributed.  This is usually the case, the mans private property is gone, just gone, little or no trace.  It is quite likely that the predation will never be seen.  This puts all producers in wolf country at a competitive disadvantage, fewer calves, lower weights and more open cows.  This is not capitalism, it is thievery.  Millions spent on one predator and a few thousand in compensation.  This is not capitalism, it is lunacy.  Stop spending money on them, let the feel good groups pay for losses and give the wolf the same status as a coyote, not good but probably the best we could do.  Canis Lupis has never been endangered in north America or around the world.  One of the most common predators on the planet and gaining range.  Reading every predator research paper I can find yields no logical reason to do what we have done since 1995. This does not fix our departments $30 million shortfall but a great place to start.

[KFhunter]

I'll bring this into the debate!   Some time ago(30+ years, pre wolf) the Cattleman's Association held a meeting in Spokane because of the "greenies" taking over the USFS and other agency's controlling the ranges.  This in turn was creating financial woe's on the cattlemen who put their cattle on public land.    Of course this all fell on deaf ears, didn't fit the coming agenda.

The Association told the "Powers that be" you pull or force us off the range's "you'll see sitting here in Spokane the results.  Cattle keep the forest floor clean and beat back the brush thickets. The sky's will glow from wildfires."They were and still are right about that prediction!! 

"Environmentalism"  has caused more damage to habitats and loss of forest revenue then any four legged bovine ever has!    Putting the wolf back into the equitation just screwed it up even more BUT it fits the agenda!

Exactly right, this has been going on for many years, the loggers have been fighting many of the same battles as cattlemen. 

Unfortunately there's too many hunters that tend to side with the tree huggers, they're either too naive to see that hunting is in the cross hairs too, or they're so selfish they'd see their enemy (tree huggers) destroy their other enemy (ranchers) just so they can have cattle free hunting, and what really galls me is some hunters believe the nonsense about over grazing and have no idea that proper grazing can and does improves hunting and habitat     

If these guys had their way all cattle would be off range, and we'd see 6 foot tall grasses that lacks neutrition go up in monster flames, again and again.  Nature abhores a vacuum, if it isn't eaten it'll be burnt.

[Gringo31]

So...

The gov't will get less money...

The rancher may go out of business...

Beef Prices will rise...

Fuel load for forest fires will increase...risking life, property etc., let alone the cost to fight.


And some cheer this on in the name of capitalism.....?   

[KFhunter]

and the habitat improvements included in the grazing contracts won't be done

[yorketransport]

Or deal with the predators that weren't here when the business started.

Shouldn't a business be forced to adapt to changing environmental and regulatory conditions? That's what I've always had to do in business.

Here's a hypothetical scenario:
Let's say that my folks opened a small retail store front in an area 30 years ago and I took the family business 10 years ago. When the store was opened the area was a relatively quite, bedroom community. When I took over the neighborhood dynamics had changed and now it's a growing suburb with all the complications which come with that. The cost of operating have gone up through inflation, license and tax increases, increased utilities and an increase in loss due to theft. The business was still profitable, but I was starting to take a hit to my bottom line.

Fast forward to today. Now the operating costs are even higher and just like any growing city, the business climate has changed. My taxes are higher, wages are higher, utilities have gone up, theft is increasing and the city officials are less helpful than ever. When I bring the increase in theft to city officials and law enforcement they tell me to invest in better security, which I try with some improvements but not much. I go back to the city and tell them again that I'm losing money and they're responsible for creating the environment which allows this to happen. They then tell me again that this is just the byproduct of a growing city.

At this point it's up to me, as a business owner, to figure out whether or not it's worth continuing to do business in a climate which I view as detrimental to my business. If I choose to stand my ground and remain in the same location then I'm accepting the good and bad which comes with that decision. If I'm absolutely certain the everything is going in the wrong direction then I'll just lock the doors and move on. Maybe somebody else is more willing than I am to deal with the hassles of running a business in the same climate.

I've sold 2 businesses before and it was incredibly hard both times to walk away from a profitable operation. Because of changing conditions though, it was the right decision to make in both cases and I don't regret it. The wolves are here and it's very unlikely that anything is going to change that. If I were a cattle rancher I would probably be taking a very close look at whether or not I could remain profitable with the increasing numbers of wolves. If I weren't willing or able to absorb the loss caused by wolves then it would be up to me to make the decision whether or not to stay in the business. It's not WDFW, the state, the Feds or anybody else's job to make sure your business remains profitable. 

[KFhunter]

epic strawman, but to bring it back to some semblance of relevancy.....

the government outlawed all your traps and poison and your right to defend your store from rampaging mice that are destroying all your product.  The giant mice are protected so they can come and go as they please and you can't do anything about it.  In complaining to the government, they said you can leave all your lights on in the store all night long since the mice only come out at night and by leaving all your lights on that'll trick them into staying in hiding but you get to pay the power bill for all those bright lights on 24/7      Ya right, you know better than that huh, your disgusted by the government lunacy and you know that mice still come out even when the lights are on so it's nonsense to incur all those higher cost electric bills, so you leave them off. 

The mice breed and multiply and start getting into other business's, due to the increased pressure the government comes in and kills a couple mice but leave 100's of others in your neighbors stores, they come right back next season. 

Now all the mice huggers are mad at you for not doing your part in using non lethal control measures like leaving bright flood lights on 24/7, and installing mouse beepers and hanging ribbons and motion controlled confetti guns, they bocoytt your store, they threaten your families lives, you can't open shop anywhere, the value of your shop due to the mice infestation has plummeted, the government forecloses your store due to diseases and ruined walls.     

You go on food stamps and sell all your guns and toys, miserable you wish you could move but your stuck where you are.   

[CAMPMEAT]

http://www.capitalpress.com/Livestock/20180523/wolves-kill-calf-rancher-rethinks-grazing-plan

Wolves kill calf; rancher rethinks grazing plan
Cattleman says his grazing allotment in the Colville National Forest has been great, but wolves may drive him out.

A northeast Washington rancher says he may quit a U.S. Forest Service grazing allotment that he’s had since the 1980s after wolves killed one of his calves Sunday in northern Ferry County.

Ron Eslick, 71, said the Black Angus calf, a week and a half old, was the first animal he’s lost to wolves, as far as he knows. He said he will look into grazing on private pastures this summer rather than risk losing more livestock on an open range.

“It’s been a perfect range,” Eslick said. “I don’t want to give it up, but I’m not going to feed the wolves.”

Several sources said the Department of Fish and Wildlife confirmed that the calf was killed by wolves. The department did not respond to requests for details and confirmation.

It’s unclear which wolfpack attacked the calf, though the herd was close to the Togo pack’s territory in northern Ferry County. Togo was one of four new packs identified by Fish and Wildlife in 2017. It has not been officially blamed for any previous depredations.

Eslick has a permit to graze cattle on the Jasper allotment in the Colville National Forest.

Eslick said a neighbor saw the wolf over the calf. The wolf left, leaving the partially eaten carcass.

“A lot of the quarters were eaten off,” he said. “If we had come two hours later, it would have been eaten and nobody would have known anything about it.”

Eslick said the calf was killed about 600 yards from his brother’s home and was found on federal land just inside the boundary with private land north of Orient, an unincorporated community that borders Stevens County.

Eslick said officials suggested he could put flashing lights on the 1,300-acre allotment to prevent wolf attacks. He said he’s checking on the condition of fences on pastures about 12 miles away.

Fish and Wildlife has adopted a policy of releasing information about wolf attacks on its own delayed schedule.

“I don’t think WDFW has a lot of interest in telling people what’s happening up here,” Cattle Producers of Washington President Scott Nielsen said. “There’s been less information, and it’s getting progressively worse.”

“I don’t think WDFW has a lot of interest in telling people what’s happening up here,”

No, so I will.  We all need to share the information.

Funny thing is, wolves have been in the town of Danville and hanging around there since 2014. Funny how the WDFW is ran by idiots.

[gaddy]

Yorke, may I call you that ? Your point is valid but running cattle is totally different than, say a store where you can up and move to a more profitable location on a different street corner.

[KFhunter]

It's a way of life, to say it's capitalism isn't capturing what these ranches mean to these old families. 
They'll go years not turning a profit then a couple stellar years and they'll finally be able to get some badly needed new equipment that's be dilapidated for way too long. 

They'll endure the ups and downs, they always have, but slowly they'll get weeded down and disappear as their kids move off or they sell out and a bunch houses go in, but hey at least all them new home owners won't be running cattle eh?