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Author Topic: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts  (Read 8833 times)

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 10:48:58 AM »
Wait for it.....wait for it......wait for it.........
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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 11:03:47 AM »
I'm very interested to see what the tribes' next move is.  I suspect they will just chip away at various things that harm fish in a tangible way.  Or maybe they'll sue the feds over all the dams on the Columbia system. 

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2018, 11:17:02 AM »
So what would be the fix?  Bigger culverts to spread out and slow down water flow or bridges??
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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 11:20:18 AM »
The state has already repaired lots of culverts and has a lot to go.  I'm not well versed in the engineering, but the fix is install new culverts that do not prevent fish from passing up or down stream. 

The bigger issue is that the ruling basically means the treaty right to fish also means the state has an obligation not to harm fish populations to the point where that right is meaningless.  It's yet to be determined exactly what that means.  But, everything that harms salmon populations is potentially a violation of the treaty rights.  Think shopping malls, houses, dams, roads, pavement, etc.

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 11:31:52 AM »
I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.

In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.

In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.

It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.

These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.

I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.
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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 11:42:11 AM »
I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.

In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.

In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.

It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.

These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.

I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.

This should be the main concern.  We can have all the habitat in the world, it won't matter one bit if the fish never make it that far.

Offline Badhabit

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2018, 11:54:02 AM »
Article was written in May 2017. Is there some new developement?

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2018, 12:13:15 PM »
The state has been on a schedual to replace culverts for some time. Many of the most restrictive culverts that held up possible salmon habitat were done first.

Here in Skagit county Lake Creek had 2 culvert replacements. One on Cavanaugh Rd one on Hwy9. Never mind the fact that there is a 20ft waterfall on Nookachamp creek that it flowing then the Skagit.  I am all for removing obstructions in the potential spawning areas, which the state has scheduled. The article makes no mention of this, or if the current lawsuit is in despute over the timeline that has been prioritized.

As sportsmen I would also like to add that the dike removals are "salmon enhancement" these project run contrary to what salmon really need in these tidal areas. What they really need is lots of deep channels to provide predator escapement  as the tide drools. This opens up more area for smoky to be reared. This follows all basic understanding of wild life. The more edge cover available the greater number of animals that can be supported.

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2018, 12:59:25 PM »
I see the Lumi Tribe is going after the whole Puget Sound clear into Canada's waters as their's.

They send demands to the Feds that THEY need to be "contacted" over ANY thing that goes on ANY where on their "Sea"!!

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2018, 02:00:55 PM »
I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.

In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.

In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.

It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.

These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.

I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.

 :yeah:

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2018, 02:09:46 PM »
 :yeah:  Spot on! 7mmfan nailed it!  Too bad that the truth isn't compatible with fish politics and all though  :(
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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2018, 02:24:19 PM »
I have to be honest, this doesn't bother me. It seems that to get people to do the right thing, they need to get their pants sued off. Will this have an immediate and significant impact? No, but improving wild salmon runs is a long game, and having more habitat available to use is important.

In the same breath. I don't give the tribes a big pat on the back, especially most of our Western WA tribes. I was on the Skagit system fishing this weekend and had to consider a few things. Back in the day (10 years ago), I could go to the Skagit on a June day and without any effort, catch dozens of Dolly Varden and Bull Trout. They were thick. They were feasting on out migrating Chum and Silver fry, which you would catch a lot of as well on small spinners/spoons. You could hardly use bait on a diver because it was constantly being picked apart by fry and inhaled by dollies.

In the winter you would see thousands, and I mean THOUSANDS of chums spawning. When the spawn was done, the river banks would be lined for miles with rotting carcasses, filling the river with nutrients. I would often fish in December high in the system and catch about as many dollies and wild rainbows as I wanted. A bead or flesh fly was irresistible. This last December I had an afternoon to fish and wanted to make the most of it, so I went to my most productive upriver spot. There wasn't a chum to be found. Not one. There were also no dollies or rainbows. My journal indicated that on that day 8 years prior I had landed 60 fish in that run that had no less than 500 chums spawning in it.

It was right about that time frame that CHum and Pink roe became a commodity, and the Indians and white commercials began seining and gill netting these fish. They have literally fished the Skagit, Skykomish, and Stilliguamish OUT of chums, and pinks are next.

These massive salmon runs are the key to a healthy river system's carrying capacity. Without the carcasses and spawn, there are no nutrients to feed the Dollies and Rainbows that used to dwell there. There is nothing for the bugs to eat that feed the steelhead smolt that live in the river for a year before heading to sea (why are our wild steelhead numbers dwindling despite no wild harvest in Puget Sound for decades?). I won't blame it all on the Indians, whites net these fish too, but when you hear the Indians pissing and moaning this winter that they were catching more Atlantics in their nets than the chums they were trying to catch for their CHUM HATCHERY, it really speaks volumes. There should never be a need for a chum hatchery, just don't kill all the damn things and let them spawn, they'll take care of themselves.

I thank the Indians for pressing the state to do the right thing and improve habitat, now they need to step up to the plate and improve their fishery management practices and start letting fish hit the gravel again. All the gravel in the world won't matter if you net them all before they get there.

 :yeah:

 :yeah: :yeah:

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Re: Washington state loses big legal battle over salmon culverts
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2018, 05:21:58 PM »
Thank you James for the link.

 


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