Conconully area...Where did the deer go?

[bigmacc]

I,m afraid it just wasn't the Conconully area that numbers were low, just over the hill in the Methow was dismal also. I myself did not buy a tag this year but my 2 young granddaughters did(12 and 14) I had them with me for 9 days. We hit 4 different units and put on a min. of 5 boot miles per day with most days being between 8 and 12 per day, we went into old haunts that in the past were old family "ace in the hole" spots that were always good for a buck or two only to find a few does and a virtual smorgasbord of predator sign, bears, cats, yotes and wolves including a glimpse of a big cat jumping from one rock outcropping to another and disappearing in seconds. As I said in another thread(wolves but no deer?)I checked in with a buddy of mine up on Lamb Butte, he was born in the valley but lives on the coast now, he has hunted the 8mile area his whole life(over 50 years of hunting the North valley), we checked in with him mid week and as of Wednesday he had seen zero deer, in the past they would have had at least 3-4 big bucks hanging by then. Someone had seen a Grizzly with a cub up in that turf, they estimated her at around 700lbs, apparently one had been spotted last year up in there also, same one? who knows? He said someone had killed a big cat as it slinked towards his dad and him, killed it at about 20 yards still moving towards them. Myself and granddaughters found 6 different piles of wolf scat a little north of the 8mile area and 9 miles from the nearest road, some was fairly fresh, I must admit that was a little eerie, full of wads of deer hair and bone. We went into another unit that I know very well only to start on a hike at about 3A.M that would take us in about 7 miles to a spot that I have never seen another hunter and have always seen a lot of deer, with in about 20 min into the hike we apparently wake or jump a sleeping bear only to have it stand up about 30 yards in front of us and crash through a thicket to get away busting limbs and branches like a tank going through, all 3 of us had bear spray, rifles and I had a 357 on my waist but I,ll tell ya that made us feel very uneasy and we turned around, not knowing were it was, what kind of bear it was or if it had a youngen with it. We went in from a different route I know that same day at around 11 A.M(in the daylight ) only to get in there and see 1 lone doe and hardly any sign, we were at almost 8000 ft . We did see a total of 4 legal bucks and about 35 does in the 9 days but nothing worthy of taking out of the herd. That same 9 days and putting on the same miles with the same warm, dry weather conditions, along with the "ace in the hole" areas 5-10 years ago  or more would have produced 3 big bucks and the spotting of about 30 other bucks along with a couple hundred does EASY, and that would be a very low estimate with a little snow up high. You kind of get the gist of it through a lot of others posts also, sure a few bucks hit the dirt here and there and out of those a few big fellas were tagged but with some of the folks on here that know the Conconully and the Methow areas there is a common theme, deer numbers are in the tank and still dropping, predators are thriving and growing as our deer herd is feeding them and poor management lets it all continue.......

[KopperBuck]

This would decrease their revenue. As it stands, they'd either have to jack up tag or license costs.

Aren't they mulling over a 15% increase.

That's without cutting tags... ouch

[M_ray]

This would decrease their revenue. As it stands, they'd either have to jack up tag or license costs.

Aren't they mulling over a 15% increase.

That's without cutting tags... ouch

So if you pay 20-25$ now for $h!t odds in every category, you wouldn’t pay 20$ to draw a quality opportunity every 2-3 years? Cause as it stands right now you have a better chance of being put in a hole in the ground than you do of drawing a quality tag. Not to mention the herds are not able to sustain the pressure they currently have on them so if we don’t limit the pressure it’s only going to get worse.

Oregon

 

[KopperBuck]

This would decrease their revenue. As it stands, they'd either have to jack up tag or license costs.

Aren't they mulling over a 15% increase.

That's without cutting tags... ouch

So if you pay 20-25$ now for $h!t odds in every category, you wouldn’t pay 20$ to draw a quality opportunity every 2-3 years? Cause as it stands right now you have a better chance of being put in a hole in the ground than you do of drawing a quality tag. Not to mention the herds are not able to sustain the pressure they currently have on them so if we don’t limit the pressure it’s only going to get worse.

Oregon

 

I think you got my idea twisted. I was pointing to the fact that some are saying be careful what you ask for, they'll never go back.

I don't think WDFW wants to go this route as it would reduce revenue. At this high level with tags for everyone, they're already asking for more money. How much more are they going to need if they go to draw only?

Everything they do is about $. You pointed it out, there's crap odds in a million categories that were created to drum up extra cash. It wasn't scientific, it was economic.

[M_ray]

The WDFW would make the same amount if they charged more for one category. You know the sad part is that our user group created some of this prob by complaining that they wanted more options and more opportunities in the first place ... it wasn’t well thought out cause having every person able to apply in every category at three choices a pop decreases your odds in every category. We have no one to blame  it ourselves and you can see the same thought process when people oppose changing it ... they just can’t wrap their head around that they will actually have a better chance of drawing if you weren’t in each category. Sorry to the OP if this sounds like a jack but really it goes hand and hand with the lack of deer people are seeing now. Of coarse it’s wolves and cats predators, fires ect, but it’s the pressure we put on them as a user group as well.

[bigmacc]

This would decrease their revenue. As it stands, they'd either have to jack up tag or license costs.

Aren't they mulling over a 15% increase.

That's without cutting tags... ouch

So if you pay 20-25$ now for $h!t odds in every category, you wouldn’t pay 20$ to draw a quality opportunity every 2-3 years? Cause as it stands right now you have a better chance of being put in a hole in the ground than you do of drawing a quality tag. Not to mention the herds are not able to sustain the pressure they currently have on them so if we don’t limit the pressure it’s only going to get worse.

Oregon

 

I think you got my idea twisted. I was pointing to the fact that some are saying be careful what you ask for, they'll never go back.

I don't think WDFW wants to go this route as it would reduce revenue. At this high level with tags for everyone, they're already asking for more money. How much more are they going to need if they go to draw only?

Everything they do is about $. You pointed it out, there's crap odds in a million categories that were created to drum up extra cash. It wasn't scientific, it was economic.

Unfortunatly you are right Kopperbuck, with the WDFW it is all about the money and sadly most of the money that we as hunters spend each year doesn't go 100% to our "game herds" a lot of it goes to lizards, frogs, birds, whales and yes bears, cats and now days wolf and grizzly. I also agree something needs to be done, at the end of the day its really sad that we as hunters need to pay the price of increased costs, less opportunity, less quality and possible mule deer hunting every 2 or 3 years in this state because of poor management, lack of management and a department that hasn't had the best interest of deer and elk hunting as a top priority in years. Ive said it a million times and Ive said it for over 10 years, we need a separate "GAME DEPARTMENT" in this state that puts hunters and game animals as THE top priorities. The way this thing has worked out since the switchover has been a travesty for our deer and elk herds, the agency has too many other priorities and special interest groups to cater to that are ahead of our herds and if you don't believe that you didn't spend time chasing mule deer around the last 10 days or have been scouting them the last 6 months in some of our traditional top shelf muley areas. As some including myself have said this just didn't happen overnight, when we lost our "GAME DEPARTMENT" is when the it started and what we have now is the results of years of neglect, poor management and arrogance by a agency that no longer has our herds or hunters best interest as job 1, as for myself, I don't like to think that 1 cent of my money as a deer and elk hunter goes to anything to do with studying a wolf, grizzly, cougar, frog or lizard but that is just me and I don't frown on others that do purchase tags(like my granddaughters), I want to know that my deer and elk tag money goes right back into the herds and paying salaries to those that spend 100% of their work week watching over, taking care of and doing things that better the health of our deer, moose, antelope and elk herds. I have not purchased deer or elk tags in this state for 3 years now. I will step down off the box now, sorry for the rant, our family has 101 years of history in the Methow and it truly is a shame what has happened here, a real shame.

[no.cen.wa]

I just spent 15 days  scouting and hunting the Pasayten,Sinlahekekin and Chewuch, hit Pearrygin on a road trip (because of lack of deer) to talk to old hunting parties,,,, course they were already gone, no deer.
Well I have to say THE WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND,,, wildlife,,,, are doing an EXCELLENT job! The PREDATOR population is doing FANTASTIC!!! I was lucky, I saw a few deer, but you better have finger on the trigger and deer in crosshairs (and count 3 points) in less than 2 seconds or it's gone where I hunt. But, the Predators are doing great! Lots of Wolf, Cougar, Bear and yotes,, did get a yote anyway.
Just my 

[bigmacc]

I just spent 15 days  scouting and hunting the Pasayten,Sinlahekekin and Chewuch, hit Pearrygin on a road trip (because of lack of deer) to talk to old hunting parties,,,, course they were already gone, no deer.
Well I have to say THE WASHINGTON DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND,,, wildlife,,,, are doing an EXCELLENT job! The PREDATOR population is doing FANTASTIC!!! I was lucky, I saw a few deer, but you better have finger on the trigger and deer in crosshairs (and count 3 points) in less than 2 seconds or it's gone where I hunt. But, the Predators are doing great! Lots of Wolf, Cougar, Bear and yotes,, did get a yote anyway.
Just my 

Hey no.cen.wa long time no talk, I hear ya, I had a couple buddies hunting 224 also, they said it was the worst they have seen it there in the 61 years they have hunted it, very few deer hanging very few shots and way to much orange. They did hear of 3 bears killed around them in the unit, I guess one was a big cinnamon somewhere around 290lbs when put on the scale . They said they had never seen so much bear sign.

[M_ray]

I think you got my idea twisted. I was pointing to the fact that some are saying be careful what you ask for, they'll never go back.

I don't think WDFW wants to go this route as it would reduce revenue. At this high level with tags for everyone, they're already asking for more money. How much more are they going to need if they go to draw only?

Everything they do is about $. You pointed it out, there's crap odds in a million categories that were created to drum up extra cash. It wasn't scientific, it was economic.

I hear ya but I’m not sure I really would want to go back??? I’d be perfectly happy with a better chance than we have now and a system like Idaho has now for the remainder if you ask me.

[KopperBuck]

I think you got my idea twisted. I was pointing to the fact that some are saying be careful what you ask for, they'll never go back.

I don't think WDFW wants to go this route as it would reduce revenue. At this high level with tags for everyone, they're already asking for more money. How much more are they going to need if they go to draw only?

Everything they do is about $. You pointed it out, there's crap odds in a million categories that were created to drum up extra cash. It wasn't scientific, it was economic.

I hear ya but I’m not sure I really would want to go back??? I’d be perfectly happy with a better chance than we have now and a system like Idaho has now for the remainder if you ask me.

I agree with you there. I'm in Oregon now and don't mind the draw. If I really wanted to hunt every year there are opportunities. But since we can't seem to effectively manage the predator impact, I think some sort of restriction management needs to be in place.

[Birdguy]

It is about the money. there will be no going back. Remember 10 years ago or so when the WDFW asked if we (hunters) would support a tag fee increase for turkeys for a turkey management plan that would promote wild turkey populations and support trap and transfer and more opportunity? What did we get......higher tag prices, the chance to buy more tags the opportunity to apply for fall permits, but no plan ever emerged. Trap and transfer will likely never happen, tough winters and hunting combined with predators cause numbers to plummet and a few good years rebound, just like before when tags were half price.

Going permit would get massive support IF we as the user group had a say in the management! I do not claim to know much about deer survival but, I do know the amount of predators in our state over the last 40 years has gone up and out of control! Coyotes, bears, cougars now wolves and grizzlies......all have a much larger impact on out herds than we are lead to believe by our WDFW. Habitat is certainly another topic but fires impact only certain areas. Last I checked not many fires east of the Kettle/Columbia rivers in the NE but deer numbers are still way down.


I could get behind permits but we have to have a measure of control as the folks footing the bill, cause whatever direction we go we will never be back to where we are 

[NOCK NOCK]

Permit only will only serve to increase the opportunity for predators and tribal. More ungulates will result in an increase of already overabundant predator populations.

There are a TON of things that should be done first...... Better predator management, more WDFW LEO's working as wildlife officers(to combat poaching) not general police, better management of tribal hunters/quantity harvested, more fencing in high roadkill areas, habitat improvement, do away with multi season(too much pressure on critters), better fire management, selective logging, less quality permits during rut times, etc...…..

These are all things that could fairly easily be done, and all would have a huge impact with helping the ungulates out, while still allowing every year hunting opportunity. 

[bigmacc]

I think it was huntnphool that had a couple different ideas that revolved around every other year scenarios for mule deer only seasons, I would like to see that tried possibly with some season adjustments thrown in for the hunter. Maybe because half the mule deer hunters will have the year off(still allowed to hunt blacktail, whitetail, elk, bear etc)the season could be extended to a 2 week season always ending on November 1st no matter what day of the week that falls on. I myself would be ok with that scenario,  a 2week season that goes to Nov.1st I would be for discontinuing all quality tags in the Methow and Entiat. A possible hybrid scenario would be Mule deer hunting in the Methow and Entiat areas only that would fall under these rules leaving other Mule deer areas left as is with no changes from what it is now. This eliminates the draw only scenarios which means we are all at the mercy of the draw, it may be every 2 or 3 years or more :dunno:that you could hunt mulies. With the every other year your guaranteed to hunt mulies one year on one off. Maybe phool can come on and elaborate on his ideas.

[grundy53]

I think if we go permit only for mule deer they should make it that if you put in for mule deer you can't hunt blacktails or whitetails. That way those sub species wouldn't get hammered. Also, I think it would reduce the pressure on blacktails from what it is now and maybe allow them to make a comeback.

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[MtnMuley]

I think if we go permit only for mule deer they should make it that if you put in for mule deer you can't hunt blacktails or whitetails. That way those sub species wouldn't get hammered. Also, I think it would reduce the pressure on blacktails from what it is now and maybe allow them to make a comeback.

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I've been saying this for years, but it was always met with resistance from the majority. It's sad that it takes conditions like nowadays to really seem to get people on board. Unfortunately for some, it might be the only way we can rebuild this herd in today's society with minimal predator management and increased introduction.