Lets Talk 12 Gauge Ballistics

[LGF]

Hey Duck and Goose hunters,  would like to discuss Shot-shell ballistics.

I recently read a couple big time articles written by big time duck and goose hunters talking about the best shot shells available on the market today.  I'm really upset by an article by (chose not to name) a big time shooter indicating he uses 4's and 6's steel shot for most duck hunting written in Sept 2018, and another that indicated shooting 2 3/4 inch shells work just as well as others. These same writers also indicated they shoot private land and decoy birds to about 25 yards.  Anything you shoot at 25 yards will work, but I have found that is not reality and most hunters find themselves shooting about half their shots 40 yards or more most days hunting.

Let me identify myself a bit,,, I'm a 56 year old that used to hunt ducks with lead shot back in the 80's and reloaded my own 2 3/4 inch shells to a very effective load for ducks and small geese back in the day. I have hunted Geese Ducks and Cranes from Mexico to MN TX CA AZ NV OR WA and ID.  With the advent of steel,,, I have grown to shop just about every product on the market and would like to share my experience.  I help manage a club and hunt about 70 of the 100 day season involved with large harvest of waterfowl each year.  I'm very fortunate and would just like to share some experience with fellow hunters.

first and foremost the shot shell game is all about ballistics. Kinetic energy rules the day.  Shot shell pellet count runs a close second.  yes,,, your choke is important, but not that critical at 45 yards.  energy and pellet count will rule the day.

Pay a bit more for Hevi shot when hunting large honkers.  Spend the money and use the Hevi-shot 3.5 inch shells number 2's or B's in 1 3/4 oz loads.  A pack of 10 will cost you about 50 to 60 bucks.  don't skimp here you will be happy you purchased the good stuff.  If you are certain the large honkers will decoy to about 25 yards for super quality shots then you can shoot just about any load and clobber these large birds. If you are like me and shoot Honkers at 40 yards to 50 yards use Hevi-shot. The 3" loads are just as good ballistic speaking. Cranes in Texas as well. Shoot the good stuff for these quality hunts.

Lets talk Ducks.  Shoot number 2's.  3's are ok but shoot the 2's.  My favorite load is the 3.5 inch 2's from Hevi-Metal.  Not Hevi shot rather Hevi metal.  About 29 bucks for 25 in the box.  A number 2 load of 3.5 inch holds about 180 pellets which is enough to give a great pattern at 40-45 yards, and the Kinetic energy is about 4 foot pounds at 40 to 45 yards.  4 foot pounds is enough energy for the pellet to penetrate the bird.  Past the feathers and into vital organs to bring the bird down.  We all agree you need about 2 to 4 pellets on target to knock a duck out of the sky. Number 3's have about 3.4 foot pounds of energy at 40 yards.  This is close,,, but not as good as a number 2 with 4+ foot pounds of energy...  again at 25 yards everything is above 4 foot pounds, however beyond 35 to 45 yards the kinetic energy drops way off and the larger pellets carry enough energy for good kills at 40 yards.

Federal Black Cloud is good stuff as well.  It's triple sealed for water proof, and is a waterfowl hunters best friend in the rain or in boats when your shells are going to get wet.  Federal Black cloud is a fantastic load slightly cheaper than Hevi Metal for Ducks.  Stay with number 2's for ducks.  BB's are also real effective for ducks and small Geese.

I keep my pattern open with Improved Cylinder never over Modified shooting Ducks and geese at 35 to 45 yards.  Let the Steel fly and don't try to constrict it very much.  Use the larger pellets and try to stay with 3 inch or 3.5 inch shells.  1500 FPS is way fast enough don't get caught up in the 1600 and 1700 FPS stuff.  Payload for more pellets and 1350 to 1500 FPS is just fine with 2's for 4+ foot pounds of Kinetic energy at 40 yards.  You will kill more Ducks on average.  2018 is gong to be a great season here in Washington. 

your comments please.
       

[Dan-o]

Thanks.

I typically only duck/goose hunt 4-5 days/year, so your information is good for me.     

[lokidog]

I choose not to shoot at ducks farther than 40 yards, #3 and #4 steel works fine (I also only shoot 2 3/4 or 3")....

I also disagree with your opinion of chokes, choke is second behind shot size as it will determine how many of your pellets are on target, especially at your 45+ yards....

IMO, cheaper shotshells will allow people more opportunity to actually practice with their chosen rounds.  I grew up shooting steel in WI since at least 1974 on public hunting grounds. When I first moved to the west coast in 86, I was excited to be able to use lead, I crippled a crap load of birds, until I switched back to steel. Then, I had no more cripples for the season because that was what I was used to shooting at ducks.

IMO Practice and impulse control are the most important factors in choosing what to shoot at ducks and geese. I will say, however, I do only use steel 6's for swatters.

[The Deacon]

I usually don't say much but wanted to weigh in on this one -

I, too, grew up in the "Lead Days" killing my first duck in 1974. Since then, I've had the opportunity to shoot many different types of non-toxic ammunition; some good, and some not so good -

First, let me preface this by saying today, I hunt exclusively public land. I'm also quite conservative in my shooting, i.e. 40 yards is a long poke for me. That said -

On range estimation - I think I would be safe in saying that many of those who hunt waterfowl - Notice I didn't say waterfowl hunters - would find it difficult to accurately show you 40 yards over dry ground, let alone 40 yards in the absence of any firm (ground-based) range markers. They believe they're shooting at 40 when in fact they're shooting at 55-60 -

On shooting ability - Many of those who hunt waterfowl don't practice wing shooting in the off-season; that is, and putting it kindly, they suffer severe accuracy trauma

On 3.5" shotshells - Unnecessary in my opinion. More cost. More recoil. More physical weight in the blind bag. With few exceptions, if it can't be killed with a 3" shotshell (or 2.75", see next entry), it's not going to be killed with a 3.5" shotshell

On 2.75" shotshells - Absolutely efficient given the right situation in the right hands. Ask anyone who shoots a 16-gauge or older 2.75"-only shotgun, and they'll tell you that the "little" shotshells work just fine

On shot sizes - I'll admit; I'm a fan of high pellet count and high pattern density. Thus, I use the smallest shot applicable to any given situation. Generally speaking, I choose steel #4 for ducks and (Hevi-Metal) #2 for geese; however, those choices will change. During teal-only seasons, I'll shoot #7 steel (1-1/8 ounce), which is deadly effective. Even during the regular season, I'll often shoot #5 steel for smaller (teal, widgeon, wood ducks) ducks. Divers are tough - heavily feathered and muscular - and often warrant an uptick in shot size, e.g. #3 or #2. The bottom line = Shot size selection is a product of the situation and the species

On chokes - Unless one wants to spend $40-120 on an aftermarket choke tube, the modified choke tube that came with Shotgun X should - SHOULD - work just fine. Over the years, I've played with many aftermarket tubes; some performed, some did not. How did I determine which ones did and which ones didn't? Patterning. There's no reason for a shooter not to know how his or her shotgun performs with Choke X and Shotshells A through E. It's called patterning. Rifle shooters spend time on the range. Shotgunners should as well

On self-discipline - If you have to ask yourself "Is it too far?" as you mount the gun, it probably is. If you say to yourself - "Ah, what the hell. I'll give 'em a go" - they're probably too far. Is (IMHO) 40+ yards too far for most modern waterfowl ammunition to do its job efficiently and effectively? No. Is (IMHO) 40+ yards too far for many of those who hunt waterfowl to do THEIR job efficiently and effectively? I believe so

I am by no means an authority on the subject above. Just a duck/goose hunter with 44 seasons under his belt. And this is what I've learned during that time - M.D. Johnson - M & J Outdoor Communications - Cathlamet

[Karl Blanchard]

I usually don't say much but wanted to weigh in on this one -

I, too, grew up in the "Lead Days" killing my first duck in 1974. Since then, I've had the opportunity to shoot many different types of non-toxic ammunition; some good, and some not so good -

First, let me preface this by saying today, I hunt exclusively public land. I'm also quite conservative in my shooting, i.e. 40 yards is a long poke for me. That said -

On range estimation - I think I would be safe in saying that many of those who hunt waterfowl - Notice I didn't say waterfowl hunters - would find it difficult to accurately show you 40 yards over dry ground, let alone 40 yards in the absence of any firm (ground-based) range markers. They believe they're shooting at 40 when in fact they're shooting at 55-60 -

On shooting ability - Many of those who hunt waterfowl don't practice wing shooting in the off-season; that is, and putting it kindly, they suffer severe accuracy trauma

On 3.5" shotshells - Unnecessary in my opinion. More cost. More recoil. More physical weight in the blind bag. With few exceptions, if it can't be killed with a 3" shotshell (or 2.75", see next entry), it's not going to be killed with a 3.5" shotshell

On 2.75" shotshells - Absolutely efficient given the right situation in the right hands. Ask anyone who shoots a 16-gauge or older 2.75"-only shotgun, and they'll tell you that the "little" shotshells work just fine

On shot sizes - I'll admit; I'm a fan of high pellet count and high pattern density. Thus, I use the smallest shot applicable to any given situation. Generally speaking, I choose steel #4 for ducks and (Hevi-Metal) #2 for geese; however, those choices will change. During teal-only seasons, I'll shoot #7 steel (1-1/8 ounce), which is deadly effective. Even during the regular season, I'll often shoot #5 steel for smaller (teal, widgeon, wood ducks) ducks. Divers are tough - heavily feathered and muscular - and often warrant an uptick in shot size, e.g. #3 or #2. The bottom line = Shot size selection is a product of the situation and the species

On chokes - Unless one wants to spend $40-120 on an aftermarket choke tube, the modified choke tube that came with Shotgun X should - SHOULD - work just fine. Over the years, I've played with many aftermarket tubes; some performed, some did not. How did I determine which ones did and which ones didn't? Patterning. There's no reason for a shooter not to know how his or her shotgun performs with Choke X and Shotshells A through E. It's called patterning. Rifle shooters spend time on the range. Shotgunners should as well

On self-discipline - If you have to ask yourself "Is it too far?" as you mount the gun, it probably is. If you say to yourself - "Ah, what the hell. I'll give 'em a go" - they're probably too far. Is (IMHO) 40+ yards too far for most modern waterfowl ammunition to do its job efficiently and effectively? No. Is (IMHO) 40+ yards too far for many of those who hunt waterfowl to do THEIR job efficiently and effectively? I believe so

I am by no means an authority on the subject above. Just a duck/goose hunter with 44 seasons under his belt. And this is what I've learned during that time - M.D. Johnson - M & J Outdoor Communications - Cathlamet

  mostly spot on sir

I'll add that testing loads should be done on a piece of paper and not out in the field.  How many waterfowlers pattern their setup? I can solidly say that out of all the duck hunters I know, the answer is exactly ZERO.  Hevi shot is the king in my mind but if you cant get it to pattern properly then it's no different than Kent


I will say though that I stopped jumping around with shot size a long time ago.  I go with the shoot one type of shell and learn how to shoot it intimately theory.

[RJW]

This day and age I don't do range estimation.  Range finders don't weigh much so I take one with me and place a decoy at 30 yards for the blind (confirmed by the range finder). That's my max range.  If they don't want to fly into that range I don't shoot.  So #3's 2 3/4 or 3 inch steel work fine.  Also shot back in the lead days.

[Bill W]

I determined my loads a bit differently than you.  I wanted something that would equal or better the ballistics of baby magnums in #4 from back in the old lead days.  Then I took the candidates to the patterning board to see which gave me the pellet density I needed.  Kent gave me the MV and ME (and downrange) figures for #2 and #3 shot so I could compare them to #4 lead.

[EWUeagles]

I have to say I disagree with everything the OP said and hope any new waterfowler skips over his post and disregards everything that is stated.
My first complaint is stating you manage a huge duck club but then state you constantly shoot at birds 40-50 yards. Why? You have private land. I can get birds to decoy on public land and I'm far from a great hunter.
Second, stating you need to shoot 3.5" shells at geese is totally wrong. I have never shot a 3.5" shell in life (except for messing around) at a bird. Why? Because it is simply not needed, except maybe snow goose hunting but I haven't done that. In fact my brother in law shot 2 3/4" 4 shot at geese for two seasons and did great on them.
I bet the author you're referring to is Phil Bourjaily who has forgot more about guns and ammo than most people will ever know. I have read a lot of his stuff and always found it to be very informative and spot on. I only bring him up because I think last year I read an article saying he loves shooting 4's for ducks.
I think what Deacon said was pretty spot on but would add that most misses are from poor shot choices and not practicing.

[Blacktail135]

 I wouldn't shoot a $6 shotgun shell at an intruder!....because I wouldn't have one in my house.

 3.5", #2's, $29/box at DUCKS? They're not charging maneaters ya know. 45 yards on a private club?

 Do I smell a shotshell salesman in our midst?
 
 I second what The Deacon, RJW and EWUeagles say.

 A bit about me.......I too are 56, I too are a former leader, I too are a private clubber, I too partake in the ART of waterfowling many days per annum and here is my typical setup & operation........I shoot a 20ga w/3" 4's (sometimes 2's), improved cylinder choke, set my furthest decoy 25-30 yards out, try to only shoot within those bounds, don't typically shoot until about 30-45 minutes after legal light opens (just too dark at opening these days) and rarely have a cripple.

 Let'em get close, lead'em enough (think shot string, not shot group). Here's to a great season 

 P.S. Whats a gague?

 

[WSU]

One thing I’ll add is that I noticed a big difference in quick kills, at all ranges, when I bought a tighter after market Carlson choke tube. It was a night and day difference.

[Skillet]

Above all, shooter self discipline rules the day, not KE.

I quit duck and goose hunting years ago, but it wasn't because I couldn't reliably kill my birds with my 12 Guage 2-3/4" steel shot.  Settled on #2's from my modified-choked Browning for all web-footed critters, worked great for me. 

I will admit, I did shoot a few goose field hunt trips in the 90's with Bismuth at the insistence of a hunting buddy who was chugging the heavy shot KoolAid.  I felt like it "hit" harder, but didn't pattern well from my gun. And it definitely didn't kill a goose any deader than dead, which is exactly as dead as they were with a well placed load of #2 steel.

Instead of succumbing to the 6" mega-magnum, U-235 pellet, $10 shell hysteria, the guy who is the most effective in the blind is the guy with a familiar gun that he's patterened and shoots alot.  There's no free lunch in wing shooting.  You can't buy your way up to being a better shot by succumbing to the "bigger/heavier/pricier is better" scam that marketers are constantly pushing on us.  Buy your steel shells by the case, along with cases of clay pigeons,  and go shoot it up. Then do it again. You'll be a much better shot, judge of distance, be money ahead, and have a lot more off-season fun than the guy who shows up to the blind with an armored car transporting his ridiculously-overpriced shot shells.

[Stein]

I shoot #3 and paid $8 a box this year.  My average shot is 20-30, all on land available to the public.

I would not recommend paying huge money for 3.5 inch shells and taking 50 yard shots at ducks.

Spend money and effort on getting them closer, not on magic shells to sky bust.


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[hunterednate]

I usually don't say much but wanted to weigh in on this one -

I, too, grew up in the "Lead Days" killing my first duck in 1974. Since then, I've had the opportunity to shoot many different types of non-toxic ammunition; some good, and some not so good -

First, let me preface this by saying today, I hunt exclusively public land. I'm also quite conservative in my shooting, i.e. 40 yards is a long poke for me. That said -

On range estimation - I think I would be safe in saying that many of those who hunt waterfowl - Notice I didn't say waterfowl hunters - would find it difficult to accurately show you 40 yards over dry ground, let alone 40 yards in the absence of any firm (ground-based) range markers. They believe they're shooting at 40 when in fact they're shooting at 55-60 -

On shooting ability - Many of those who hunt waterfowl don't practice wing shooting in the off-season; that is, and putting it kindly, they suffer severe accuracy trauma

On 3.5" shotshells - Unnecessary in my opinion. More cost. More recoil. More physical weight in the blind bag. With few exceptions, if it can't be killed with a 3" shotshell (or 2.75", see next entry), it's not going to be killed with a 3.5" shotshell

On 2.75" shotshells - Absolutely efficient given the right situation in the right hands. Ask anyone who shoots a 16-gauge or older 2.75"-only shotgun, and they'll tell you that the "little" shotshells work just fine

On shot sizes - I'll admit; I'm a fan of high pellet count and high pattern density. Thus, I use the smallest shot applicable to any given situation. Generally speaking, I choose steel #4 for ducks and (Hevi-Metal) #2 for geese; however, those choices will change. During teal-only seasons, I'll shoot #7 steel (1-1/8 ounce), which is deadly effective. Even during the regular season, I'll often shoot #5 steel for smaller (teal, widgeon, wood ducks) ducks. Divers are tough - heavily feathered and muscular - and often warrant an uptick in shot size, e.g. #3 or #2. The bottom line = Shot size selection is a product of the situation and the species

On chokes - Unless one wants to spend $40-120 on an aftermarket choke tube, the modified choke tube that came with Shotgun X should - SHOULD - work just fine. Over the years, I've played with many aftermarket tubes; some performed, some did not. How did I determine which ones did and which ones didn't? Patterning. There's no reason for a shooter not to know how his or her shotgun performs with Choke X and Shotshells A through E. It's called patterning. Rifle shooters spend time on the range. Shotgunners should as well

On self-discipline - If you have to ask yourself "Is it too far?" as you mount the gun, it probably is. If you say to yourself - "Ah, what the hell. I'll give 'em a go" - they're probably too far. Is (IMHO) 40+ yards too far for most modern waterfowl ammunition to do its job efficiently and effectively? No. Is (IMHO) 40+ yards too far for many of those who hunt waterfowl to do THEIR job efficiently and effectively? I believe so

I am by no means an authority on the subject above. Just a duck/goose hunter with 44 seasons under his belt. And this is what I've learned during that time - M.D. Johnson - M & J Outdoor Communications - Cathlamet

If MD said it, I'm going with it! Love this guy's work. Check out his stuff in Field & Stream or Wildfowl or American Waterfowler if you haven't already. Knew he was a WA resident from his writing but didn't know he was part of this forum! Very cool.

[AWS]

I killed my first duck in 1956 and have only missed a couple seasons since.  When we had to got o steel in the 1970's I shot 4's as that was as small as it came, we shot 1-1 1/8 oz of 6's or 7.5's in lead so it wasn't a major change for us.  We never had a problem with the change as we were shooting our skeet guns over decoying ducks (MN Public lands). 

I've stuck with steel 4's since until bismuth and ITX shot came out and I could break out my old sxs's.  Now it is 2.5" shells with 7/8th oz of ITX 6's and 1 oz of Bismuth 5's.  To me big shot, long shells, custom chokes are just crutches to make up for poor hunting skills.

[LGF]

Some so sensitive.  All due respect, please don't take what I say personally. Just trying to stimulate some good discussion.  M.D Johnson said it best.  I hunt waterfowl. 

I don't sell shells.  I don't have a dog in this fight. Just dig waterfowl hunting.

Try this link and watch the short video at the bottom, really sums up my points in OP.

http://fowledreality.com/waterfowl-hunting-shell-size-selection/

If you can shoot birds consistently at 25 yards you don't need to worry about a thing. shoot cheap 2.75 loads of 6's.  If you are like me and most considerate hunters,,, you will shoot some birds 35 and 45 once in a while all the way to 50 yards on your third shot.  Reality on most days. 

Rule
1. Larger pellets will carry higher foot pounds penetrating vital parts to kill birds. Kinetic energy. Common charts and measures will use 40 yards as your guide for energy.  Steel number 2's usually run about 4.4 ftp in most loads at 40 yards compared to number 4's at 2.5 ftp's. Fact not opinion. You will retrieve more birds and not lose cripples as often.
 
2. Payload,  have enough pellets to give good pattern density. Shoot the 3.5 inch shells if you can.  consider cost and kick. Remember a 3.5 inch load will carry about 18% to 20% more pellets per shot. this again will improve your kill ratio instead of losing cripples. Fact.

3. Choke. Not critical, but important.  Use your factory IC or MOD and you will be just fine as indicated by replies on the OP.

Good luck and good hunting. I'm out.  Don't forget to click the link and watch the 2 minute video.  real good info.
 

[RJW]

This will not make many points here

" If you are like me and most considerate hunters,,, you will shoot some birds 35 and 45 once in a while all the way to 50 yards on your third shot.  Reality on most days. "

Self control and the fact that I don't NEED to kill every duck that gets close to me make it possible for me to not take those kind of shots.  By the way, I have 10 years on you both in age and hunting time.  Come back when you're not so green 

[lokidog]

This will not make many points here

" If you are like me and most considerate hunters,,, you will shoot some birds 35 and 45 once in a while all the way to 50 yards on your third shot.  Reality on most days. "

Self control and the fact that I don't NEED to kill every duck that gets close to me make it possible for me to not take those kind of shots.  By the way, I have 10 years on you both in age and hunting time.  Come back when you're not so green 

I do understand his point a little about sometimes taking a longer shot on a bird that you might have not hit solidly in closer. I will often have a larger sized pellet shell as my third round for those situations.

[RJW]

And that's fine. But  you don't need the "good stuff" in 3 1/2 as your only ammo and that's what he is saying. And now he is also saying you are not a   "considerate hunter" unless you do. And I call BS on that statement.

I could say a considerate hunter never tries for a triple because you don't have a back up if you do.  But some would call that BS also. He is painting with a pretty wide righteous brush there.

[lokidog]

And that's fine. But  you don't need the "good stuff" in 3 1/2 as your only ammo and that's what he is saying. And now he is also saying you are not a   "considerate hunter" unless you do. And I call BS on that statement.

I could say a considerate hunter never tries for a triple because you don't have a back up if you do.  But some would call that BS also. He is painting with a pretty wide righteous brush there.

I agree, notice I was the first to call him on this.   However, I can cram another couple rounds into my gun pretty quickly and have a few triples, quadruples and even a couple of fivers under my belt. The fivers were Mergansers swimming through the decoys. 

[WSU]

There's nothing wrong with killing ducks at 40 yards.  Some folks make it sound like a sin.  Modern shells (I shoot 3" shells) will consistently kill ducks stone cold dead at 40+ yards.  I certainly like shooting them at 10 feet and shooting them 2 feet off the water is certainly the goal, but I also kill plenty at 40+ yards. 

I'm not sure why some have to act holier than thou towards people that don't refuse shots past 30 yards. 

[lokidog]

There's nothing wrong with killing ducks at 40 yards.  Some folks make it sound like a sin.  Modern shells (I shoot 3" shells) will consistently kill ducks stone cold dead at 40+ yards.  I certainly like shooting them at 10 feet and shooting them 2 feet off the water is certainly the goal, but I also kill plenty at 40+ yards. 

I'm not sure why some have to act holier than thou towards people that don't refuse shots past 30 yards.

Nothing wrong with it, if you can do it. Most people (these being the couple times a month hunters) will not shoot clay pigeons with shells costing a buck each for practice, therefore, most people will not be able to effectively kill birds past 30-35 yards.  To imply that all it takes is bigger and more expensive pellets does no service to the ducks.   

[RJW]

I shoot at 40 also.  I just don't agree with the need for 3 1/2 inch shells like he states. I do try to get them closer before I start, but that's just me.

[RJW]

But I don't hold with this do what I do and use what I use or you're not a "considerate hunter" crap. Comments like that tend to change the whole complexion of a conversation with me. 

[CP]

I shoot what's on sale.  I don't like spending more than $8/box of 25.

[Ridinshotgun]

3" #2's Kent fast steel work great.

[fethrduster]

I'll chime in.  I too have been duck hunting since the 80's.  There's such a thing as the law of diminishing returns when it comes to shotshells.  Shotguns actually pattern best and are most efficient with lighter loads, not heavier ones.  I shoot ducks and geese with 2.5" and 2.75" handloads of ITX or Bismuth 4's or 2's  in steel and short chambered damascus guns, and my last goose hunt, I got 4 snows with 6 shots, over decoys, while the guys I was hunting with were banging away with their 3.5" howitzers and shot more than I did before they got their limits.  Just thought you'd like to hear a different perspective.   

[SilkOnTheDrySide]

I’ve tried all sorts of different shells.  I hunt both private and public.  I prefer a long range after market choke and 3.5” #2 black cloud.

Say what you will.  Maybe it’s mental. But I’ve tried to switch into cheaper shells, (and other expensive shells) and they’ve underwhelmed time and time again. 

The one thing I like with the LR choke is I either kill em or I miss em! 😂 that pattern is tight at 20 yards 😂😂

The Remington Hyper Sonics also seemed to shoot really well and hammer hard out of my gun.



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[EWUeagles]

There's nothing wrong with killing ducks at 40 yards.  Some folks make it sound like a sin.  Modern shells (I shoot 3" shells) will consistently kill ducks stone cold dead at 40+ yards.  I certainly like shooting them at 10 feet and shooting them 2 feet off the water is certainly the goal, but I also kill plenty at 40+ yards. 

I'm not sure why some have to act holier than thou towards people that don't refuse shots past 30 yards.

Agreed nothing wrong with shooting them at 40 yards but I always try to get them closer. Especially when there's a good group. If you raise up and the first bird is at 40 yards, then each shot will be farther and truly the last shot will be out of range. I gave the OP crap about shooting at 40-50 yards because he "humbled" bragged about managing duck club. If I got to hunt private land 70-100 days a year no way am I ever taking a shot at 40 yards or farther.

The OP was just off based and almost promoted sky blasting(I consider this when your first shot is 60 yards or more). He also made it sound like to kill birds you needed to shoot 3.5" shells and stuff that are 30 bucks a box. I'll say it again my brother in law shoots 2 3/4" 4 shot xperts at geese and I have never seen him not out shoot everyone in the group. I'm not that confident in myself so I prefer 3" BB shot for geese and 2 or 3 shot for ducks.

[Special T]

I would say that MOST waterfowlers dont practice as much in the off season as they should. just shooting once a month would greatly increase ones ability to devastate at that 35-40 yard range. im not one of these folks but i know a few that would have no trouble limiting inside of a 15 shot shell limit shooting at that 40 yard range.

[ian_padron]

This post is funny.

I only shoot el cheapo Winchester SuperX.

I shoot 2.75" #3s out of my 12 gauge and it stones birds dead out to 40 yds.

#4s out of my 20 gauge do the same.

It's the Indian, not the arrow

Get a good aftermarket choke, pattern your gun, and go smoke some birds.

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