"Red Flag" Laws in Practice

[Fl0und3rz]

Maryland Cops Descend on Man's Homes to Confiscate His Guns Under New "Red Flag" Law; When Man Scuffles to Keep Possession of Guns, He's Shot Dead
—Ace of Spades

Wonderful.

It seems like a member of his family filed the "red flag" complaint, so it's possible this guy was behaving strangely or threateningly enough to justify some kind of an intervention.

He also seems to have opened the door with a gun in hand, which is legal, but also seems provocative.

This doesn't bode well for "red flag" laws going forward.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/378085.php


It will be interesting to see what predicate factors were determinant in this person being identified as subject to the Red Flag confiscation.

[Special T]

I find this fraught with abuse potential. Women making false claims of DV and abuse, folks "swatting" other people, and now this potentially.

Since very few people are charged with making false accusations  I find this troubling.

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[KFhunter]

 

very troubling, suspending constitutional rights above and beyond what's laid out in the constitution.  I hope it gets challenged. 

There's a big red flag element in our new gun law


being shot by the police is the ultimate 4th amendment seizure, they seized that persons life, by all accounts he's done nothing wrong, not charged with any crimes, yet he's been shot dead.


The Fourth Amendment was part of the Bill of Rights that was added to the Constitution on December 15, 1791. It protects people from unlawful searches and seizures. This means that the police can't search you or your house without a warrant or probable cause.

Probable cause is a requirement found in the Fourth Amendment that must usually be met before police make an arrest, conduct a search, or receive a warrant.  Courts usually find probable cause when there is a reasonable basis for believing that a crime may have been committed (for an arrest) or when evidence of the crime is present in the place to be searched (for a search).  Under exigent circumstances, probable cause can also justify a warrantless search or seizure.  Persons arrested without a warrant are required to be brought before a competent authority shortly after the arrest for a prompt judicial determination of probable cause.

having your guns seized under red flag laws isn't a crime, thus there is no habeas corpus, no redress to the courts for unlawful detention. There's nothing you can do. 

It seems like a messed up and illegal law to me, but I'm not a lawyer.

[Fl0und3rz]

I find this fraught with abuse potential. Women making false claims of DV and abuse, folks "swatting" other people, and now this potentially.

Since very few people are charged with making false accusations  I find this troubling.

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Agreed. The lack of due process protections in WA's law is also troubling

[BigGoonTuna]

why on earth would they come knocking at 5am?  i could totally understand someone coming to the door with a gun at that hour.

[fastdam]

why on earth would they come knocking at 5am?  i could totally understand someone coming to the door with a gun at that hour.

Swat raids are designed to be disorienting.

[KFhunter]

The guy has committed no crimes, and is now dead.  Courts won't release the name/s of who reported the poor guy.  This is legal court approved "swatting".


remember, it doesn't take much to scare a snowflake.  Post a scary gun on facebook...I don't know where the bar is, neither does the court, there is no bar.

[pianoman9701]

...coming to a front door near you.

[KFhunter]

...coming to a front door near you.

NOT ME!  My family doesn't have any snowflakes...they're coming to YOUR door!

[Tinmaniac]

Sounds like the red flag was spot on to me.Guy fights with the cops and gets shot.It's pretty simple,the guy with the gun and the badge makes the rules,do what he tells you to do.Learn how to behave and respect law and order and you won't end up dead.

[KFhunter]

If the cops hadn't been there, he wouldn't be shot....but I agree the place to resist is the courtroom, not when the cops are at the door, but that option isn't really available is it? 
And at what cost to the former gun owner?
Does the court pay for psych evaluations and Dr. visits so he can restore his rights?  or must he be unable to defend himself until the court order expires?   
The guy has done nothing wrong.  Just wait until a gun owner complies, looses his/her guns and is robbed and killed, the court took away his ability to defend him/herself.


This has the potential to go to feces in a hand basket.

https://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/372596006-Civilian-self-defense-vs-police-excessive-force-Its-not-that-simple/

[Tinmaniac]

Obviously this guy should not have had a gun in the first place.If he fought with the cops he is nuts.Anyone that wants to defend people that fight with the cops should have their gun rights looked at too.Cops don't show up at your door looking like robbers.They announce who they are and knock real LOUD.

[pianoman9701]

Obviously this guy should not have had a gun in the first place.If he fought with the cops he is nuts.Anyone that wants to defend people that fight with the cops should have their gun rights looked at too.Cops don't show up at your door looking like robbers.They announce who they are and knock real LOUD.

I'm a real and staunch defender of the thin blue line. And we have no idea what happened here. There have doubtlessly been many cases where the police have shot people without cause and had they been civilians, would've rotted in jail for it. Do you know for a fact that they had cause to shoot him? No, you don't. None of us do. Do you know he didn't obey their commands? No, none of us do. Blindly supporting either side in this case is ignorance personified. I'd like to see bodycam footage before I give anyone a pass here. And if they don't have any, especially on this kind of operation, that stinks.

[Tinmaniac]

It's much more likely that this guy was nuts,which is why the cops were there to take his guns.I would like to believe that most cops don't get out of bed in the morning and say "today I am going to kill someone ".For anyone that thinks he was shot without reason try pulling your gun on a cop and see what happens.Farewell to thee....

[pianoman9701]

Sounds like you've made up your mind. If you have details about this killing that the rest of us don't please share. Thanks.