Biosolids

[smithkl42]

I had my first experience today walking through a clearcut that had been recently sprayed with biosolids. At first I couldn't figure out what this dark gray mud was that was covering the ground. Finally put two and two together. (Pretty sure that it's supposed to be sterile by the time they spray it. At least, I sure hope so.)

I know we're all pretty well agreed on these forums that spraying herbicides is awful for the deer. But what about biosolids? It seems like it should, in general, encourage *all* sorts of plants to grow, both the sort that timber companies are interested in and the sort that deer are. But is that actually how it works out? Any concerns there?

[Alan K]

I, I guess for one, don't believe herbicides are bad for deer... With green up restrictions they are never more than the next clearcut over from a buffet. The state's richest deer populations are on commercial timberlands which have been treated with herbicides for decades. I know thats not the point of this thread though. Don't want to derail already, but had to say something on that sweeping statement.

On biosolids, who's land is it? I don't know of anyone that uses them with any regularity, and I'd assume it's almost as much of a favor to the local water treatment plant to get rid of it as it is a benefit to the landowner. I have seen it out in Mason County. Like you, the first time I saw it I thought huh.... Then it dawned on me.  I don't think you have anything to worry about health wise. I don't know what the composition is, I'd think it varies by what went in the intake.  In general fertilizer is a booster for all growth. Check it out again this spring when everything breaks bud.

[Bob33]

EPA FAQ:

https://www.epa.gov/biosolids/frequent-questions-about-biosolids

[HntnFsh]

I, I guess for one, don't believe herbicides are bad for deer... With green up restrictions they are never more than the next clearcut over from a buffet. The state's richest deer populations are on commercial timberlands which have been treated with herbicides for decades. I know thats not the point of this thread though. Don't want to derail already, but had to say something on that sweeping statement..

You must not frequent Weycos St .Helen's tree farm!

[hunter399]

Everybody got something to say about spraying.
With that said,
Keep in mind there in the business of growing trees.Not forage,bruss,grass,or anything deer like to eat.

[Alan K]

I, I guess for one, don't believe herbicides are bad for deer... With green up restrictions they are never more than the next clearcut over from a buffet. The state's richest deer populations are on commercial timberlands which have been treated with herbicides for decades. I know thats not the point of this thread though. Don't want to derail already, but had to say something on that sweeping statement..

You must not frequent Weycos St .Helen's tree farm!

Frequent, no, but am usually up there a few times a year. Along with Vail, Pe Ell N/S, Ryderwood, Kapowsin, Rayonier on the coast at times, and state lands thoughout SW WA... They all use the same chemicals, or at least the same active ingredients.  Clearcuts provide the best feed around. Obviously not immediately after a spray, but the feed is back in a couple years. It is as good a buffet as they could ask for and the landowners trees have had a change to get their root systems established. 

The only place thats virtually void of game that I spend time in is USFS ground. Clearcut and herbicide free...

[100 grain]

This topic always gets me thinking and I’m never vocal about it. Do you think you spray more than us east siders? Not a chance! We are surrounded by AG land and we do nothing but spray. I worked for a chemical distribution company up until last year and I’v seen how much we spray....don’t blame it on chemicals because that is not valid or we would have the issue here. With that being said, we also spread biosolids on the wheat fields (the final stage of biosolid where I live is not allowable though) and ask around because there is no issues over here. Or atleast confirmed that I’ve heard of. This has been going on for some time now. I’m anxiously waiting on the confirmation on what’s really causing these problems but it’s not chemical unless it’s compounded with chemical being one of a few factors.  My 

[Blacktail Sniper]

It certainly stretches the "A crappy day in the woods is still better than any day at work" theory...

[Romulus1297]

Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. 

[JimmyHoffa]

This topic always gets me thinking and I’m never vocal about it. Do you think you spray more than us east siders? Not a chance! We are surrounded by AG land and we do nothing but spray. I worked for a chemical distribution company up until last year and I’v seen how much we spray....don’t blame it on chemicals because that is not valid or we would have the issue here. With that being said, we also spread biosolids on the wheat fields (the final stage of biosolid where I live is not allowable though) and ask around because there is no issues over here. Or atleast confirmed that I’ve heard of. This has been going on for some time now. I’m anxiously waiting on the confirmation on what’s really causing these problems but it’s not chemical unless it’s compounded with chemical being one of a few factors.  My 

I think there is a difference in the eastside ag spraying and the westside timber spraying.  The ag fields are usually being sprayed to only produce things deer/elk like to eat.  The timber lands are sprayed to produce the things they don't like to eat.  If (just the hypothetical if) the sprays are a factor, would the spray hurt more if the animals had more food than they could ever hope to eat or if they were somewhat malnourished.  A little spray on a bunch of apples and a field of wheat or alfalfa might not affect them as much as getting spray all over them just to get a blackberry stalk or a few alder branches.

[100 grain]

JH good point. Ingestion is a separate issue than being applicated on. I’m part of a Facebook forum that people post on the sprays being applicated on the west side forsests (hiking forum) and they are no different than items applicated here. They were exact chemicals we spray year after year. Oddly enough some were manufactured by my old company. So, maybe your on to something with the applications over the top of the animals. Look at the famous Agent orange issue. Aerial applications should have taught us lessons years ago applicating over living things!

[throwingsticks]

There is not a health risk with biosolids, I wouldn't stress

[KFhunter]

There is not a health risk with biosolids, I wouldn't stress

According to the link Bob33 tossed up, that isn't fully settled.

[hunter399]

You all know back in the good ol days they used to clear cut then burn the whole area .Which I think was a lot better for wildlife you have grass ,brush ,trees ,everything growing back at the same time.

[Alan K]

Don't disagree there! The cost and restrictions are just crippling anymore. Slash piles here and there, but no more broadcast.

[smithkl42]

Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. 

Nah, this was public land, and if there were "biosolids being sprayed" signs, I didn't see them. On the other hand, I entered the clearcut through a shortcut, and if I'd gone the extra mile or two out of my way to stay on the roads, they might have been there.

[smithkl42]

BTW, this study here, in a very different context, found no difference between white-tailed deer use of grasslands treated with biosolids vs those without.

https://bioone.org/journals/rangeland-ecology-and-management/volume-64/issue-2/REM-D-09-00125.1/Wildlife-Responses-to-Long-Term-Application-of-Biosolids-to-Grasslands/10.2111/REM-D-09-00125.1.short

Of course, that's grasslands rather than reprod, and white-tailed deer rather than blacktail. But worth noting.

[Angry Perch]

Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. 

Nope. LOOP sprays up in Campbell Snoqualmie all the time. The areas are posted, but access is not restricted. The only warning is not to forage for mushrooms or edible plants for a year (I think it's a year). It has that familiar manure smell, but knowing it's human manure makes it seem nastier. Those areas definitely green up fast.

[BeWitty]

Biosolids have gone through the treatment plant and have been digested. Most Biosolids leaving a west side treatment plant are hauled over the mountains and applied on a BUF (beneficial use facility). A lot of times these facilities are wheat fields. It’s perfect fertilizer as it’s rich in nitrogen and phosphorus and you don’t need to water because it’s usually about 80% water already. Many of these land app sites are in Douglas and Mason county and regulated by the EPA. If you want really green grass and plants that grow very fast, use biosolids!

There are two common types of biosolids, Class A and Class B. Very different treatment and usability.

[Katmai Guy]

Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. 

Nope. LOOP sprays up in Campbell Snoqualmie all the time. The areas are posted, but access is not restricted. The only warning is not to forage for mushrooms or edible plants for a year (I think it's a year). It has that familiar manure smell, but knowing it's human manure makes it seem nastier. Those areas definitely green up fast.

Two Years!

[Angry Perch]

Obviously you went around a locked gate with signs saying no trespassing and biosolids are being utilized. With doe, health district and owners phone numbers and owners disposal permit numbers on the sign you went past. 

Nope. LOOP sprays up in Campbell Snoqualmie all the time. The areas are posted, but access is not restricted. The only warning is not to forage for mushrooms or edible plants for a year (I think it's a year). It has that familiar manure smell, but knowing it's human manure makes it seem nastier. Those areas definitely green up fast.

Two Years!

Yet they use it on crops, which I don't get. 

[throwingsticks]

There is not a health risk with biosolids, I wouldn't stress

According to the link Bob33 tossed up, that isn't fully settled.

from Q9 of the EPA link,
As reported in the 2002 National Research Council of the National Academies report, Biosolids Applied to Land: Advancing Standards and Practices, the Council concluded that, “There is no documented scientific evidence that the Part 503 rule has failed to protect public health. However, additional scientific work is needed to reduce persistent uncertainty about the potential for adverse human health effects from exposure to biosolids.”

driving to your hunting location and walking around in the woods are thousands of times more dangerous. With that said, you might have an issue if you try eating pounds of biosolids, mostly low IQ, but that would be a pre-existing condition....

[Romulus1297]

How does a Loop Poop truck with a Poop Pup trailer spray biosolid on a wheat field? They don’t it’s dry. It’s a pretty poopy dry load they haul 7 days a week to the wheat fields that is then evenly spread over the field and then incorporated or disked in before planting. It’s not sprayed on apples. The wa doe is in charge of biosolids.

[JimmyHoffa]

Biosolids have gone through the treatment plant and have been digested. Most Biosolids leaving a west side treatment plant are hauled over the mountains and applied on a BUF (beneficial use facility). A lot of times these facilities are wheat fields. It’s perfect fertilizer as it’s rich in nitrogen and phosphorus and you don’t need to water because it’s usually about 80% water already. Many of these land app sites are in Douglas and Mason county and regulated by the EPA. If you want really green grass and plants that grow very fast, use biosolids!

There are two common types of biosolids, Class A and Class B. Very different treatment and usability.

Do drugs (prescription and illegal) get digested or filtered? 

[fishnfur]

... and what about viruses?

[BeWitty]

Wastewater is very diluted when it gets to the treatment plant ( 97-98%) already. I believe a large percentage of drugs in ones system comes out in urine therefore stays In the ‘liquid’ stream of the treatment plant. That flow ultimately gets disinfected and goes to its receiving waters. The solids/sludge that gets digested stays in a digester for a minimum of 15 days at 98 degrees to meet the Class B permit.

So to answer your question, drugs aren’t specifically treated or filtered but I’m not sure how detectable it’s be leaving the plant.

[BeWitty]

... and what about viruses?

The digestion process and the methane and acid fermenters should take care of the viruses if they haven’t already been treated.....I believe.

[howlow]

I see places I hunt that they put biosolids on fields that eventually are harvested for human consumption is this kinda like mad cow for humans?

[KFhunter]

Are there prions in bio solids?

[KFhunter]

https://www.nebiosolids.org/prions-tses-alzheimers-and-biosolids/


keep in mind this is coming from a biosolids company..

The science is far from definitive, and, while there is some evidence of possible transmissivity or replication of various neurological diseases, including Alzheimer’s, it is currently considered to be a rare possibility.  The Nature article notes that scientists studying these various twisted proteins “warn that it is too early to draw conclusions about the clinical significance of discovering different strains of Alzheimer’s plaques. Some are wary of linking neurodegenerative and prion diseases, especially when prion biology is still so poorly understood. And considering prion and non-prion diseases together ‘could give the misleading impression that you could catch Alzheimer’s from visiting your grandmother’, says Virginia Lee, who works on neurodegenerative diseases at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. ‘There is absolutely no evidence that’s possible, and it would be a dangerous thing to imply.’”

Finally, when confronted with claims of human health impacts from biosolids, it is important to consider the simple epidemiological concept of fate and exposure.  People only get sick from something if exposed to a toxic or infective dose.  It is implausible that biosolids-borne prions, many of which are inactivated in anaerobic digestion (see Miles et al., 2011, available from the NEBRA office), that are applied to soils where microbes break them down over time, contribute to the millions of cases of prion diseases or Alzheimer’s and other neurological diseases. 

The fact is, very very few people are exposed to biosolids.

[Angry Perch]

https://www.nebiosolids.org/prions-tses-alzheimers-and-biosolids/


keep in mind this is coming from a biosolids company..

The science is far from definitive, and, while there is some evidence of possible transmissivity or replication of various neurological diseases, including Alzheimer’s, it is currently considered to be a rare possibility.  The Nature article notes that scientists studying these various twisted proteins “warn that it is too early to draw conclusions about the clinical significance of discovering different strains of Alzheimer’s plaques. Some are wary of linking neurodegenerative and prion diseases, especially when prion biology is still so poorly understood. And considering prion and non-prion diseases together ‘could give the misleading impression that you could catch Alzheimer’s from visiting your grandmother’, says Virginia Lee, who works on neurodegenerative diseases at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. ‘There is absolutely no evidence that’s possible, and it would be a dangerous thing to imply.’”

Finally, when confronted with claims of human health impacts from biosolids, it is important to consider the simple epidemiological concept of fate and exposure.  People only get sick from something if exposed to a toxic or infective dose.  It is implausible that biosolids-borne prions, many of which are inactivated in anaerobic digestion (see Miles et al., 2011, available from the NEBRA office), that are applied to soils where microbes break them down over time, contribute to the millions of cases of prion diseases or Alzheimer’s and other neurological diseases. 

The fact is, very very few people are exposed to biosolids.

Right, and the entire article is saying that the thought that prions survive the process and are a health risk is BS.

[KFhunter]

I don't know enough to argue about this topic in my own words, I don't use biosolids or have any experience with them.

So I posted an article from a biosolids corporation, I can't imagine anyone being more pro-biosolids than a corporation that sells the stuff to big ag.

 

[Stein]

For those of us without a political science degree, what we are discussing is whether we should take the output from sewers and spread it all over the land?

[Boss .300 winmag]

All I know is growing up near an apple orchard that got sprayed in the winter from septic pump trucks with raw sewage is that those apples 🍎  were really delicious. 🤣